I could do with some help please?

by chrisuk 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • chrisuk
    chrisuk

    Hi everyone :)

    So the elder I studied with called round last Wednesday. I didn't tell him I'd lost my faith, I just said there are a number of reasons I wouldn't be able to return to either my studies or the meetings. He asked me whar 2 or 3 of my reasons are so we could discuss them.

    My reply: 1 I think all Christians should partake of the bread and wine. I said Jesus himself said unless we do so we have no life in us. The elder said Jesus was talking to anointed Christians when he said that. I replied with: But he said unless we partake we have no life in us, to me that seems like a message to all Christians.

    Reason 2: I believe that when Jesus said he had other sheep that were not of this fold/flock that he was refering to the Gentiles and maybe even people in the future who would need to be taught Christianty.

    Reason 3: The 144,000 isn't literal, it's symbolic, as are most things in the book of Revelation.

    Now, I've done some research on JWFacts.com and also on the Calm website, but I can't seem to get clear enough evidence to backup my points. Also I'd like to be able to quote my sources and I know if I quote an apostate source that will be the end of that conversation.

    I want to give short, clear answers. Prefrebly directly from the Bible, or at the very least from sources I can show to him. He said he was going to do some research and get back to me next/this week. He looked a bit confused though if I'm honest. Anyway it was last Wednesday morning around 10 ish that he came so I'm expecting him at the same time in the morning.

    Could anyone who is very familar with my 3 points be able to help me out please? I'd really appreciate it.

    Kind Regards.

    Chris.

  • NAVYTOWN
    NAVYTOWN

    Just listen to whatever he has to say, then tell him you will think the matter over and you'll get back to him. Then of course just forget the whole thing.....why do you need to give him an accounting of your current understandings? Unless you just enjoy debating, let the matter drop. As an elder, he will just be spouting the party line anyway, so why bother??

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    Are you baptised as a JW? If not then you are free and clear, no need for the slightest effort on your part except getting them to leave you alone again.

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent

    Hi chrisuk, Ask simple questions that make the elder provide the answers. For reason #1, ask the elder where in the Bible did Jesus Christ say that only the annointed could partake in the bread and wine? For reasons #2 & #3, find out what the elder believes and then ask him simple questions to prove his position using the Bible.

    Personally I would learn how to overcome the common WTBTS's thought stopping platitudes as well as asking questions of your own. When in doubt a JW will always use a thought-stopping platitude to help them rationalize why they blindly follow the GB and WTBTS. I personally would ask the elder how the WTBTS is following God's Greatest Commandments in MT 22:34-40 and avoiding committing the only unforgivable sin in MT 12:22-37. The latest WTBTS propaganda almost makes God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit irrelevant as long as you blindly follow the GB. And, how can shunning every be justified through the teachings and example of Jesus Christ?

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    Robert

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    What's your goal? TO change his mind or have him leave you alone?

  • leaving_quietly
    leaving_quietly

    My reply: 1 I think all Christians should partake of the bread and wine. I said Jesus himself said unless we do so we have no life in us. The elder said Jesus was talking to anointed Christians when he said that. I replied with: But he said unless we partake we have no life in us, to me that seems like a message to all Christians.

    WTS does NOT teach this. Your elder/teacher is quite misinformed. In fact, they teach this applies to both the anointed and the great crowd. They teach that the particular verse that says this was figurative, not literal, as is was stated about a year prior to instituting the Lord's Supper. Noteworthy, though, they USED to teach this as you believe it prior to the whole 144,000 / great crowd separation (circa 1931 or 1934 or somewhere in there).

    w08 4/15 p. 31 par 1

    5:26; 6:53—What does it mean to have ‘life in oneself’? For Jesus Christ, this means receiving from God two specific capabilities—the ability to give humans a fine standing with Jehovah and the power to impart life by resurrecting the dead. For Jesus’ followers, ‘having life in themselves’ means entering into the very fullness of life. Anointed Christians enter into it when they are resurrected to heavenly life. Faithful ones with an earthly hope will experience the fullness of life only after they pass the final test that will occur right after the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ.—1 Cor. 15:52, 53; Rev. 20:5, 7-10.

    w03 9/15 p. 30-31

    Questions From Readers

    What does having “life in himself” mean?

    The Bible speaks of Jesus Christ as having “life in himself” and of his followers as having ‘life in themselves.’ (John 5:26; 6:53) However, these two scriptures do not have the same meaning.

    “Just as the Father has life in himself,” stated Jesus, “so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.” Prior to making this remarkable statement, Jesus said: “Most truly I say to you, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life . . . The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live.” Here Jesus was referring to an extraordinary power bestowed upon him by the Father—the ability to give humans a fine standing before God. Moreover, Jesus is able to resurrect those sleeping in death and to impart life to them. For Jesus, having “life in himself” means that he is granted these powers. Like the Father, the Son also has “in himself the gift of life.” (John 5:24-26; footnote) What about his followers?

    About a year later, Jesus addressed his listeners, saying: “Most truly I say to you, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day.” (John 6:53, 54) Here Jesus equates having “life in yourselves” with gaining “everlasting life.” Expressions with the same grammatical construction as having “life in yourselves” are found elsewhere in the Greek Scriptures. Two examples are, “Have salt in yourselves” and “receiving in themselves the full recompense.” (Mark 9:50; Romans 1:27) In these instances, the phrases do not signify power to bestow salt on others or to mete out recompense to anyone. Rather, internal completeness, or fullness, is indicated. Thus, the expression “life in yourselves” used at John 6:53 simply means entering into the very fullness of life.

    With reference to his followers as having life in themselves, Jesus mentioned his flesh and his blood. Later, when instituting the Lord’s Evening Meal, Jesus again spoke about his flesh and blood and directed his followers who would be taken into the new covenant to partake of the emblems of unleavened bread and wine. Does this mean that only anointed Christians, who are in the new covenant with Jehovah God, enter into such fullness of life? No. The two occasions were a year apart. Those who heard Jesus’ words recorded at John 6:53, 54 had no knowledge of an annual observance with emblems representing Christ’s flesh and blood.

    According to John chapter 6, Jesus first compares his flesh to manna, saying: “Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever.” Jesus’ flesh, along with his blood, was greater than literal manna. How? In that his flesh was given for “the life of the world,” making everlasting life possible. Hence, the statement about having “life in yourselves” at John 6:53 applies to all those receiving everlasting life—in heaven or on earth.—John 6:48-51.

    When do Christ’s followers receive life in themselves, or enter into the fullness of life? For the anointed Kingdom heirs, this happens at their resurrection to heavenly life as immortal spirit creatures. (1 Corinthians 15:52, 53; 1 John 3:2) Jesus’ “other sheep” experience entry into the fullness of life after the end of his Thousand Year Reign. By then, they will have been tested, found faithful, and declared righteous for everlasting life in the Paradise earth.—John 10:16; Revelation 20:5, 7-10.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Hi chrisuk. Sorry this is a bit long but it's a cut-n-paste from an article I wrote years ago on the topic of the ransom.

    It deals with the two-teir doctrine from a biblical perspective. Hopefully you can make use of some of it.

    You can read the whole essay here...


    The Society teach that not everyone who puts faith in Jesus is declared righteous to the same extent. It describes the majority of believers as having only, “a degree of righteousness” credited to them, as having a “relatively righteous standing” before God, and of being counted as righteous “compared to mankind in general.” (See The Watchtower, 1 December 1985, p.17).

    Bible writers know of no such half-hearted generosity on God’s part. Either we are forgiven or we are not. Either we are declared righteous in God’s eyes or we are not. Being righteous compared to mankind in general will not reconcile us to God. That would leave us like the man on the roof mentioned earlier, closer to the stars than his neighbours, but still light years removed from his goal. Indeed the very notion of having a “relatively righteous standing” before God is nonsensical. It is comparable to describing a woman as being relatively pregnant. If we have “a degree of righteousness” credited to us then we are still marred by a degree of sin, which God must condemn and punish, and therefore we remain alienated from him.

    Jesus did not just bear some of our sins: He bore all of them. The “great crowd” of Revelation 7 are said to have,“washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb,” not relatively clean compared to mankind in general.The “sheep” of Jesus’ parable at Matt. 25:31-46 are referred to as the “righteous ones” who depart “into everlasting life”, not as the relatively righteous who qualify for a second chance.

    The Bible uses the analogy of adoption to illustrate the relationship with God that Jesus’ death makes possible. It is one of the first things that John tells us in his gospel. “As many as did receive him, to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith (“believing”; Interlinear) in his name, and they were born, not from blood, or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (Jhn.1:12,13)

    ..

    There are, by the Bible’s reckoning, only two sorts of people. Everybody begins as the same sort; children of Adam or, “in Adam”. In this state they are, under “condemnation” (Rom.5:18), “alienated” from, and “enemies” of God (Col.1:21), “children of wrath” Eph. 2:3, under the “authority of darkness” (Col.1:13), walking in “accord with the flesh” (Rom.8:4), “slaves of sin” (Rom.6:17), and “dead in their trespasses” (Eph.2:1&5).

    This is not the Bible’s description of an especially depraved person but of the normal human condition from God’s perspective. It matters not at all that we may not feel guilty or under condemnation, God’s inspired word says emphatically that we are.

    The other sort of person is, “in Christ”. These are, “declared righteous” (Rom.5:1), “reconciled to God” (Rom.5:10), “born of God” (1 Jhn.5:1) or “born again” (Jhn.3:3), “beloved children” of God (Eph.5:1), “transferred into the kingdom of the Son of God’s love” (Col.1:13), indwelled by “God’s Spirit” (Rom.8:9), part of a “new creation” (2 Cor.5:17), and “alive together with the Christ” (Eph.2:5).

    The difference between these two groups is not that the latter are more worthy, or that they try harder to be good, nor that they naturally have more interest in spiritual matters or an ability to read and understand the Bible. It is simply that they have put faith in God’s provision for their salvation. They have humbly abandoned their attempts to earn His favour and trusted in Jesus as their Saviour. For someone to feel that these blessings could not apply to them because they are not worthy is for that person to miss the point of the good news. Nobody is good enough, that is exactly the point at which the gospel begins.

    We cannot pick and choose which of the above descriptions of those who belong to God apply to us, and which ones do not. We cannot for example be reconciled to God, but not be a “new creation”. (see 2 Cor.5:16-19) We cannot be “beloved children” of God, but not be “born of God”. We cannot draw a line between calling God “Father”, and calling him, “Abba, Father”. If we have not been adopted then we are not His children, He is not our Father, and we have no right to call Him such at all. If we are His children then we are also joint heirs with Christ. If we are “in harmony with the Spirit” then “God’s Spirit truly dwells” in us, but if we do not have the Holy Spirit then we do “not belong to” Christ. (See Rom.8:9-17) Only if we are “led by the Spirit” can we produce the “fruitage of the Spirit”. But again, if we are, then we can cry out “Abba Father” and we are adopted as sons of God and joint heirs with Christ. (See Gal.4:6,7;5:16-24)

    The teaching that God’s promise of adoption as sons applies only to a small minority of those who put faith in Jesus is an especially pernicious doctrine. Being “anointed” or “born again”, is not simply a technical label that distinguishes a person as having a heavenly calling as opposed to an earthly one. It is a description of the life that can be enjoyed by all who have been forgiven and reconciled with God. It has to do, not with where God wants us to spend eternity, but whether or not we are reconciled to him now, and therefore have any eternity to look forward to at all.

    It is clear from his first letter that John did not view being born again as something that applied only to a few Christians. He says that, “Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God.” (1 Jhn.5:1) And later in the same letter he wrote, “See what sort of love the Father has given us that we should be called children of God, and such we are.” (1 Jhn.3:1)

    It is taught by the Society that those who died prior to Pentecost have a different destiny to believers since then, and that all but a tiny “remnant” of those alive today have the same hope as faithful ones of ancient times. The Scripture that is often used to support this view is Jesus’ words at Matt.11:11. “Truly I say to you people, among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.”

    These words of Jesus have to be read in the wider context of His teaching about the kingdom. Earlier, while in the city of Capernium, He had been struck by the faith of a gentile army officer. Addressing the crowd that was following him he said, “I tell you that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside.” (Matt.8:11,12) Contrary to the teaching of the Watchtower Society then, these three faithful men who died many centuries before Jesus, will be in the kingdom of the heavens. So belief that John the Baptist and others will not be there simply because they died too soon clearly lacks scriptural foundation. When read in context it can be seen that Jesus had in mind, not John’s future destiny but his present prophetic role. “The law was given through Moses, undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ.” John 1:17

    Going back again to Paul’s letter to Rome, we find that he uses the example of Abraham to illustrate how it is that God declares those who have faith to be righteous. To argue that Abraham was not declared righteous in the same way, or to the same extent as Christians, as the Watchtower attempts to do –Yes, due to his faith, Abraham was declared righteous as a friend of Jehovah, not as a son with the right to perfect human life or to kingship with Christ” – The Watchtower, 1 December 1985 – cannot be sustained in the light of chapters three and four of Romans. Paul explains explicitly and at length that Abraham is the model of the way all are justified by faith. He says, “He is the father of us all.” (v.16)

    Of course this raises the question of how God could forgive the sins of those who lived in the past before Jesus provided the means of reconciliation. Paul deals with this specifically in chapter three where he says that, “God set [Jesus] forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was in order to exhibit his own righteousness because he was forgiving the sins that occurred in the past while God was exercising forbearance, so as to exhibit his own righteousness in this present season, that he might be righteous even when declaring righteous the man who has faith in Jesus.” (Rom.3:23-26) Jesus’ death was an event in which God demonstrated or exhibited His righteousness once for all time. It does not matter whether a person lived centuries before Jesus or after Him. Jesus carried the sins of us all and everyone having faith is declared righteous on the same basis.

    To divide people into those with a heavenly hope and those with an earthly one is not a Biblical concept. “There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell” (2 Pet.3:13), but that does not mean that God has selected some for heaven and some for earth. In the sermon on the mount Jesus began by making the nine statements known as the beatitudes, in which he declares certain types of people to be happy or blessed, and in each case he makes a promise concerning their future. (Matt.5:3-12) It is clear that Jesus is painting a composite picture of all those who belong to Him, not a list from which individual statements could be chosen and applied to individuals at random. Among the promises that Jesus makes are, “the kingdom of the heavens belong to them”, “they will inherit the earth”, “they will see God” and “they will be called sons of God.” If we are part of Christ’s body then we all have the same hope as Paul reminded the congregation at Ephesus. “One body there is, and one Spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” (Eph.4:4-6) Seeing God, and inheriting the earth, are not mutually exclusive destinies

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy

    What's an anointed christian, ask your elder that. Christian means anointed one. As for you points search for my da letter it breaks down all your points and gives a lot of scriptures.

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    I take it that you are NOT baptized?

    Just BELIEVING doctrines contrary to the WTS is reason enough to DF a baptized JW.

    (Yes believing differently is Apostacy.)

    I agreew with the advise to make HIM give YOU the answers.

    This forces him to do his own research into WT doctrines, which is something he's never had to do because JWs accept everything said by WTS at face value and never check to document it in the Bible. This might make him realize how much he has taken for granted without proving it to himself.

    Good luck,

    Doc

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    Personally and in hindsight, I believe they must be asked questions and provide answers - not the other way around.

    Examples:


    "Is legalism apostasy?"

    "What is the opposite of legalism"?


    Are you lead by Holy Spirit?

    Are you a son of God?

    How do you reconcile your answers with Romans 8:14?

    If you are not a son of God, whom are you calling father?


    What is the gospel in one word?

    No, it is not Kingdom, Jesus or love. The gospel is not a government, person or fruit of the holy spirit.


Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit