Dead pregnant woman forced to stay on life support, due to TX State law

by adamah 285 Replies latest social current

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    I think the hospital is doing this because they are afraid of legal repercussions if they don't. Although this is not the intention of the the law, they are erring on the side of caution and protecting themselves, no matter the cost to the family. In my experience hospitals are mainly concerned with their profits, not morality.

    My heart goes out to the family, who have been forced to stand by and watch while this plays out. I see nothing moral or good in keeping this woman's body on life support against her clearly stated wishes, and that of her family.

  • adamah
    adamah

    SNR said- Hamsterbait, they had no legal right to put the dead mother on life support.

    As you pointed out, they put her on life support before she was pronounced brain-dead. State law forces hospitals to maintain 'pregnant patients' on life support, but fails to mention what to do if they should die while ON life support (the provision mentions coma/persistent vegetative state pts, but doesn't specially mention what to do in case of death).

    So they had EVERY legal right (or at least a good defense), since JPS' defense likely would be they were trying to follow the law in 'good faith'. That's the entire point of the thread: the hospital's overly-broad interpretation of TX law over-rides the wishes of the decedent and her husband, taking away the right to decide what happens to her body.

    So when SNR says this:

    I imagine the legal issue is that of the original desicion. It would not be illegal to turn the machine off now with consent from family and with a doctors opinion of best interest for the fetus.

    Have you read anything about the case at hand? JPS' questionable interpretation of the State law has removed that decision from not only the family, but even the treating doctors. It specifically prevents the opinion of the doctors to be considered in the matter, since that's the entire point OF the law.

    LisaRose said- I think the hospital is doing this because they are afraid of legal repercussions if they don't. Although this is not the intention of the the law, they are erring on the side of caution and protecting themselves, no matter the cost to the family. In my experience hospitals are mainly concerned with their profits, not morality.

    JPS seems to be in a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation at this point, since the State faces HUGE lifetime costs for medical care if it survives, as well as a civil suit for violating the rights of the next-of-kin. If they disconnect, they can avoid/mitigate the costs of care, but likely won't, since they are committed to the "right to life" position and not willing to consider "quality of life" of the malformed and cognitively-impaired fetus.

    The ironic thing is that right to lifers claim abortion is wrong, since they claim no one should play God. So what do they do? They turn around and play God....

    LisaRose said- My heart goes out to the family, who have been forced to stand by and watch while this plays out. I see nothing moral or good in keeping this woman's body on life support against her clearly stated wishes, and that of her family.

    Yeah, it must be a living nightmare for them, prolonging a painful situation for months.... If there was ever an "open and shut" case of intentional infliction of emotional distress greater than this one, I can't imagine what it would be....

    Adam

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Adam, sir, with respect... I sincerely don't have the energy to read your replies.

    I sincerely don't.

    You talk as if an authority on EVERTHING.

  • Gypsy Sam
    Gypsy Sam

    My friend and I just talked about this case on our jog.

    We've both had children born (now deceased) where if NATURE had been allowed to take its course these newborns would have each died at birth. Unfortunately, for everyone involved, the hospital (nurses) wouldn't honor our DNR wishes. The doctors were honest and gave us each facts and no false promises. Each child was doomed never to eat on their own, suffer cerebral palsy, not walk etc. In my situation Hope Hospice loving got involved and let NATURE take its course and my baby passed away at 6 weeks.

    My friend unfortunately had 7 years of emotional distress and a baby that never came home. Her hospital was a Cathilic hospital and they flat out told her they would not honor her DNR wishes. Mind you, each of our babies hearts had stopped but the nurses refused to honor What we signed. I did not look into the legal issues at that time. the doctors somehow got Hope Hospice involved for us. There is no logic used by some hospitals and those in a position of authority in some of these situations. Quality of life does matter and it's painful and upsetting to see the rights to that taken away.

    Adamah, your points are incredibly interesting, if a bit lengthy and I hope you don't feel I derailed your thread in any way :)

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    (for those who don't know, 'hydrocephalus' means an accumulation of cerebrospinal fluid in the head which causes the brain and skull to swell, and is common cause of brain damage with cognitive impairment, etc).

    I've known several people who had it, 'hydrocephalus" and do very well in life. I knew a thalidomide kid who was the happiest kid, he put all of us with four complete limbs to shame as far as showing how spoiled we were. Then there are kids with heart problems, everywhere.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    Cord blood transfusions are helping kids with hydroephalus. If you go to the link you can see a video of this beautiful little girl. I know not all cases turn out well, but many do, even with the shunts that have been used for years. My best friend's son had it. He was a preemie with many problems. He was a genius and though he had his challenges, including cerebral palsy, he was glad to be alive and we were glad to have him. He went to school, loved Metallica and lived to be in his 30s. He died from an infection and we all miss him terribly. I still don't know that I wouldn't feel exactly as this brain dead mother's husband and family feel. I can't relate because my daughter didn't experience brain death while pregnant and be continued on life support. I don't have an opinion about whether the possible birth defects would change my view on ending a pregnancy. It is good to look at children who have survived with the three types of defects or malformations you have mentioned. Some have miserable lives and die early while some go on to have challenges, but live their lives. I have had health challenges since I was 13. Health challenges are a part of many lives.

    http://www.wcnc.com/news/health/Experimental-procedure-changes-Charlotte-area-girls-life-139739833.html

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    Health News

    Experimental procedure changes Charlotte area girl's life

    |

    by MICHELLE BOUDIN / NewsChannel 36 Staff

    Bio | Email | Follow: @MichelleBoudin

    Posted on February 20, 2012 at 4:40 PM

    Updated Monday, Feb 20 at 4:41 PM

    CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- A routine ultrasound turned frightening for a local mom as she learned her baby would be born with a life-threatening condition.

    Lindsey Musgrave remembers the day when she learned her son Vincent would soon have a sister.

    “We were elated,” Lindsey said. “My husband wanted a girl. I wanted a girl. I just wanted a healthy child, though.”

    That same ultrasound revealed something else.

    “The doctor looked at me and he looked very concerned,” Lindsey recalled. “He said there was something wrong with her brain. It didn't hit me at first. I was thinking it can’t be that serious right? And then he said, ‘No it’s really serious.’”

    Her baby's condition was so serious that the doctor told her to consider aborting the pregnancy.

    “I asked them if she would ever be able to walk or talk, or ever be able to form relationships and the answer to those questions was, ‘I don't know.’”

    Lindsey also asked if the baby would be able to lead a normal life.

    “They flat out told me no,” Lindsey said.

    Marley was born with a severe case of hydrocephalus, which is excess fluid that puts dangerous pressure on the brain.

    Through research her mom learned the little girl’s best hope at a normal life was an experimental procedure being done at just one hospital in the country: Duke University Medical Center.

    Newschannel 36 followed Marley there for what’s called a cord blood transfusion.

    Cord blood is the baby’s blood leftover in the placenta. Marley’s blood had been stored at Duke University Medical Center where Dr. Joanne Kurtzberg is the pioneer of this type of work. She is studying to see if the procedure that has helped with so many other conditions could actually change the prognosis for babies born with hydrocephalus.

    “We’re now testing whether using that baby’s cord blood … in their veins after birth helps repair the brain,” Kurtzberg said.

    Families come to Duke from across the United States.

    “We originally heard about it from another fellow mom,” Lindsey said.

    While waiting for treatment, the moms at the hospital compare notes.

    The Milberg's are from St. Louis and went to Duke for the same procedure. They say 8-month-old Eli is at an age where they're hoping to see if the transfusions really work.

    Elijah, 4, from Virginia seems to be a success story. He was among the first of the hydrocephalus babies to have a cord blood transfusion and is thriving. He's a symbol of hope as Marly just begins the process.

    NewsChannel 36 was there as Marly's blood was readied. Grandpa and big brother Vincent watched over her along with a team of doctors and nurses as they prepared for the procedure.

    A music therapist was also there to distract the toddler from what was to come.

    A few minutes later it was over and the real waiting began. Will the cord blood heal Marley's brain?

    “This is hope,” Lindsay said. “This gives us hope.”

    “We hope these children will develop normally enough to have functional lives, to not be impaired, and do the things normal kids do and to grow up and have a normal life span, but we don't know until we finished the studies we’re doing,” Kurtzberg said.

    Lindsey Musgrave says she doesn’t have to wait to know the transfusion is working.

    “There’s never a day when I don’t think about what we were told she wouldn’t do and what kind of quality of life she wouldn’t have. Now to see the total opposite happening, it just blows my mind,” Lindsey said.

    Lindsey is now the state director for the Pediatric Hydrocephalus Foundation. She’s trying to spread the word about just how common this is and about the work being done at Duke. For more information go tohttp://www.hydrocephaluskids.org.

    “My hopes for my daughter are that she’ll live the best life that she can live,” Lindsey said. “My number one wish is that my daughter will be happy.”

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    Thanks for giving your experience Gypsy Sam, I am so sorry you had to go through that, it must have been very hard. This is why the family should be the ones making the decision in cases like this.

    I too know children with hydrocephalus, it is possible they can live a normal life. It is also possible the child will be profoundly damaged, especially since the mother was deprived of oxygen for some time. The problem is that this family made the painful decision that, in this case, with this pregnancy, it was best that the dead mother should not be kept on life support. If the mother had chosen to terminate the pregnancy, she could have. Since the mother is dead, the husband should have been the one to decide whether to keep his wife on life support in an attempt to let the pregnancy continue. I am sure it was a hard decision, but he did what he knew his wife wanted, and what he felt was best. This hospital should not have been the one making the call.

    Of course those who are against abortion for any reason will think this was a good decision. But if abortion is legal, what right does the hospital have to force the pregnancy to continue against the wishes of the husband? It just seems cruel and unnecessary.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Lisa, as a trainee doctor I can assure you, the issue isnt the mothers consent. She had died, she couldn't say snything. She was dead, and they wrongly gave a dead body LIFE SUPPORT. This is nonsensical, they are even refusing to classify her as dead as they realise what they have done. All the while, a fetus is slowly developing and malforming inside a dead woman. These results were always going to happen.

    as for FHN comments, I appreciate your hope, but I assure you it is not realistic.This prolonged suffering was immoral. Pregnant women have died for as long as we have had pregnant women, this is the first time anyone has ever misguidedly, attempted to maintain a fetus in a dead woman. The predictable consequences to the fetus are the exact reasons why. Also hydrocephalus insult to a fetus, alongside cardiac, limb and insurmountable malformations are NO COMPARISON to a healthy child with hydrocephalus.

    When the fetus does, as likely die, sometime after nature would have ordained, can the pro-life/religious please not state something along the lines of 'at least we tried'. It was not our wife to try it on, it was not our unborn baby to experiment with. The defence in ignorance began as 'how do you know the baby is damaged' to 'its not that damaged that much' to 'damaged babies can be happy too'.... let's stop here and not sink any lower, please.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Gypsy Sam said- Quality of life does matter and it's painful and upsetting to see the rights to that taken away.

    Thanks for sharing your personal experience.

    Oh, on this:

    Adamah, your points are incredibly interesting, if a bit lengthy and I hope you don't feel I derailed your thread in any way :)

    Well, keep it under your hat, but try reading every OTHER word I write, since I include a secret buried message in each post (and it'll cut your reading time in half).


    Here's the latest news, where a judge will hear the matter on Friday:

    http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/24534666/co-author-of-state-law-follow-pregnant-brain-dead-womans-familys-wishes

    A Tarrant County judge will hear the lawsuit against John Peter Smith Hospital on Friday, brought on by the family of a pregnant, brain-dead Haltom City woman being kept artificially alive on life support against the family's wishes.

    Marlise Munoz, 33, developed a blood clot, and in November, before controversy surrounded her brain-dead condition, Munoz was taken to JPS Hospital, 14 weeks pregnant with her second child.

    The hospital disagreed with the family's wishes to have her removed from life support, citing a Texas law that requires a pregnant woman to be kept on life support until the fetus is viable at about 24 to 26 weeks.

    Erick Munoz, Marlise's husband, filed a two-page sworn affidavit Thursday.

    He begins by stating, "Since my wife's death on November 26th, 2013, I have had to endure the pain of watching my wife's dead body be treated as if she were alive."

    He goes on to say he is positive that his wife Marlise is dead and lists several reasons, saying in part, "When I bend down to kiss her forehead, her usual scent is gone, replaced instead with what I can only describe as the smell of death."

    He also says, "Her limbs have become so stiff and rigid due to her deteriorating condition that now, when I move her hands, her bones crack and her legs are nothing more than dead weight."

    The Tarrant County District Attorney's Office represents JPS Hospital, and its statement to the court directly contradicts Erick Munoz, confirming the unborn baby still maintains a heartbeat.

    It states, "His argument is that a dead person cannot receive life sustaining treatment. His position, however, ignores consideration of the unborn child."

    One of the co-authors of the law keeping the woman alive thinks the law is being misinterpreted, expressing how he feels in an affidavit .

    SMU law professor and medical ethicist Tom Mayo was on the committee that drafted the law that goes to the heart of this case.

    "I think the family's wishes should be respected," Mayo told FOX4. "I think that we're in a situation where the law does not drive the outcome that we've seen so far."

    According to a statement from the family's attorneys, medical records show the condition of the roughly 22-week-old unborn child as abnormal and deformed.

    While Mayo says the condition of the fetus may be an ethical concern on whether to continue life support, other experts say it's likely not a legal one.

    "Viability still cannot be determined for another two to four weeks," said attorney Jessica Frankland. "So, really, just because there are health issues, or potential for disability, that does not mean the child is not viable."

    The hearing is set to take place in Perry-nominated state district judge R.H. Wallace's courtroom, where there's not much legal gray area.

    "If the judge decides she should be taken off life support, any sort of appeal would probably be moot because if she's taken off life support, Mrs. Munoz, obviously the fetus will pass away…nothing can really be done at that point," said Frankland.

    The judge has to decide between two competing statutes under Texas health and safety code; one that supports the family's viewpoint, and one that supports the hospital's viewpoint.

    The judge will have to make a decision on what the legislature intended.

  • adamah
    adamah

    For anyone who cares about the actual facts in the case (and is able and willing to read), here's a PDF of the hospital's affadavit:

    http://content.foxtvmedia.com/kdfw/pdf/1_23_14_munoz_repsonse.pdf

    (JT, I found this part interesting, referring to 166.049: "There is no case law interpreting this section.")

    Here's Erick Munoz's full affadavit:

    http://content.foxtvmedia.com/kdfw/pdf/1_23_14_Erick%20Munoz%20sworn%20affidavit.pdf

    And the affadavit filed by Tom Mayo, one of the co-authors of the law:

    http://content.foxtvmedia.com/kdfw/pdf/mayo%20short%20filing.pdf

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