Elijah caught up to heaven???

by amac 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  amac

  Fred and Yer,
  With all due respect, please don't hijack this thread. I would like to keep it about 2 Kings 2:11 and the dating of the letter spoken of at 2 Chron 21:12-15. A new thread would be fitting for your discussion on the soul.

  Thanks,
  amac
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Roger AMAC,

  On the other hand, NA NA DA BOO BOO.

  
  YERUSALYIM
  "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
  [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
• 

  Nemesis

  Hello Amac and welcome,

  The only thing that pops to mind is that Jesus said no one had ascended to heaven before him. So logically Elijah could not have gone to heaven—as in the spirit dwelling of God.

  One thing that I have wondered about is the disappearance of Enoch; see what the verse says here: “And Enoch kept walking with the [true] God. Then he was no more, for God took him.—Genesis 5:24

  If you notice in all the other descriptions of death before and after say: “. . . years and he died.” For example:

  1. And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.—Genesis 5:8
  2. And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.—Genesis 5:11
  3. And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.—Genesis 5:14
  4. And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.—Genesis 5:17
  5. And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.—Genesis 5:20
  6. And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.—Genesis 5:24
  7. And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.—Genesis 5:27
  8. And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.—Genesis 5:31

  They are all described as just dying, except for Enoch, for God “took him”. This cannot mean took to heaven, as this would contradict what Jesus said about he being the first to be resurrected to heaven. But interestingly Enoch could have been resurrected to spirit and still not have arisen to heaven. The Watch Tower specifically ignores that part. Satan is not in heaven according to the Bible, but he still exists, as there is far more to the universe—material and spiritual—than just heaven. The Watch Tower’s reasoning is like saying if you are not in the White House with the president then you must be dead, as where else could you be? Well there is a whole world out there that you could be in, and just the same in the spirit world.

  Also Jesus roamed about in this realm for 40 days before he ascended to heaven, he was obviously not dead, but just in a lower level of the spirit realm, and had not yet ascended to heaven. So logically Enoch could have been resurrected and others also like Elijah and still not contradict what Jesus said about him being the first to ascend to heaven. They would have had to wait until Jesus had arisen to heaven before they could also.
• 

  amac

  The only thing that pops to mind is that Jesus said no one had ascended to heaven before him. So logically Elijah could not have gone to heaven—as in the spirit dwelling of God.

  Unless, of course, it is a contradiction.

  The Enoch case is interesting, albeit a little ambiguous and open to interpretation. The Elijah case is a little more direct as it clearly describes an ascension.

  Cheers,
  amac
• 

  Larsguy

  Hello AMAC,

  Wow! What an interesting question!! This took some research! The answer is not that apparent. But here it is.

  The Bible for this period purposely complicates the chronology, making simple statements out of chronological sequence that you can only put back into sequence with several comparisons. So it would be difficult with overlapping chronologies to tell exactly when an event occurred sometimes. But since the chronology has been worked out for all the kings during this period, the KEY REFERENCE we must deal with is when Elijah wrote the letter to Jehoram of Judah and that apparently was exactly 2 years before his death. Another hint as far as the timing of this event is Elijah noting that Jehoram had not followed in the ways of his father, Jehoshaphat, meaning that Jehoshaphat had already died.

  Now what we must do is try to chronologically place Elisha and the earliest event after Elijah left was during the time when Moab revolted against Israel. We find Elisha present when Jehoshaphat was assisting Jehoram of Israel with the revolt. Thus Jehoshaphat was still alive.

  Thus, we know for sure that Elijah wrote the letter after he had gone up to Heaven. But as far as exactly WHEN he went up to heaven, from what I've read it is not clear though it seems to be after the death of Ahaziah but could be as late as after the death of Ahab which occurred SIX YEARS LATER!

  Now that is just a TECHNICAL POINT that doesn't really affect this disscussion, but as I said, the earliest we see Elisha on the sceen that we can effectively date in connection with some event happened after Ahab's death which occurred in the 6th year of Jehoram of Israel. Jehoram of Israel was thus co-ruler with his father Ahab for 6 years. That's why the Bible shows him becoming king TWICE; once in the 18th year of Jehoshaphat, a year after Ahaziah became king, who ruled two years but becoming king in the 17th year of Jehoshaphat, and again in the 2nd year of Jehoram of Judah who became king in the second year of Jehoram of Israel, that is, Jehoram of Israel became king again in his SIXTH YEAR, meaning the year his father co-ruler died.

  Thus, in case you got lost, Ahaziah became king in the 16th year of Ahab, his father and was co-ruler with him for parts of 2 years but died. Then Jehoram of Israel must have been appointed the following year in the 18th of Jehoshaphat to replace him which was also the 17th year of Ahad. He co-ruled with Ahad for the following 6 years down to the 22nd year of Ahab when Ahab died and he became king again, as sole ruler. Thus Ahab died in the 23rd year of Jehoshaphat who ruled for 25 years. Jehoram of Judah thus was co-ruler with his father Jehoshapht for 4 years. Now I can give you background on all this but won't here.

  The main point is, though, as noted, that Elijah did write the letter of Jehoram of Judah until 2 years before his death and after Jehoshaphat had died but Elisha had received Elijah's mantle during the reign of Jehoshaphat and particularly at the time of Edom's revolt which was right after Ahab's death.

  So the WTS gets off the hook this time, and you can presume what you wish about Elijah to "heaven" or simply being taken away to some other place with heavenly transportation at the time of his general retirement with Elisha taking over after him.

  I'll post the chronology of this period if you wish, but it only indirectly relates to your question about Elisha.

  Hope that answered your question.

  L.G.
• 

  Will Power

  lar
  

  Another hint as far as the timing of this event is Elijah noting that Jehoram had not followed in the ways of his father, Jehoshaphat, meaning that Jehoshaphat had already died.

  curious, "not following in the ways of his father" could mean many things. Is this the same reasoning in a sense that gets to the year 607? and 1914?
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  Larsguy

  curious, "not following in the ways of his father" could mean many things. Is this the same reasoning in a sense that gets to the year 607? and 1914?

  No. I agree. This is not preemptive, this is just "background". But the fact has already been established. The letter to Jehoram occurred exactly 2 years before his death. He ruled for 8 years, so this happened during his 6th year. Even though he was co-ruler with his father for a few years (4 years), his father would have been dead by this time. No the FACTs have been established.

  But this statement as far as falling on one side or the other might be considered as additional confirmation that his father had died, because even during the co-rulerships, the father-king still held sway. Before Jeroboam could reinstitute pagan worship which his father had basically banned, he had to wait until his father died. So really, if this statement is not considered to apply to him personally, but to his support of pagan worship, it could not have begun until he became the sole ruler and primary king. He certainly would not have begun these things during the reign of his father. So it's not an absolute pointer but a good pointer if there were no other specific dating text, that this was consistent with his father having already died.

  But I just ADDED that as supportive background. The letter is dated specifically 2 years before his death and his father was definitely dead at this time. So that statement wouldn't need to be considered in the final chronology debate. It's just background.

  By the way, I'm not a 607-er. Jerusalem fell in 529BCE.
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  Fredhall

  Hey All,

  Shut up and read the scriptures that I qouted.