The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
Again, Cofty, you speak from ignorance on the matter; of the science and of God and of how energy works with God. Unless of course you can tell me that you know how all of these things work together?
2Tired... how is that for certain? How do you know that he did not warn people... but that there were none willing/able to receive His warning? You guys don't even believe the Spirit exists, much less speaks. I believe that you are in the majority on that.
Regardless, tsunamis, hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, etc, etc... are all part of this world, and the inherent harm that they may cause to others are also part of this world. You knew this truth at birth; you knew this truth when you believed; you knew this truth from Christ who said that such things would happen. To be surprised then to the point of turning your back on God/losing your faith when such things DO happen... is very strange to ME. I can understand being shocked by the reality of something that you might not have allowed yourself to think of before.
But death is death. It comes to most everyone (those in Christ do not taste death - do not go to the world of the dead - but do go under the altar to await the first resurrection). Physical death, however, does come to everyone. There are some who blame God for not stopping the things that cause death - natural or not - which is what you are doing. And some who know that he gives life (we are all alive or we would not be having this conversation), including eternal life; those who see/know Christ who healed the sick, forgave, showed mercy, gave his life, resurrected some, etc, etc... and these are not the examples of a God who does not love and does not serve and does not work for His children... but of a God who does love, who does serve, who does work for his children.
In this life there will be death and suffering... at the hands of others for the most part, but also at the hands of natural events (some as a result of what was needed to support life, and some -maybe even all- that comes from events that we do not know about).
Not knowing the specific reason for a specific event... is not the same as there not BEING a specific reason. Nor is it intellectually dishonest to say you don't know, but that you do not assume, in light of all you DO know about God (from Christ), that it is because God is a monster (as you judge one you do not know).
You object to the reasons that you have summarized from various people (and sometimes misrepresented, though not necessarily on purpose)... and think that your objection defeats them? Because there are objections and discrpencies to your explanations as well, and I assume you do not think that defeats them: that god does not exist TO stop suffering (and that opens a whole other discussion); or that god is useless, weak, immoral, etc... all of which is contradicted in the fact that we have life, the promise of life, as well as being contradicted in all that Christ showed us about His Father.
So for those reasons... there are objections and discrepencies and questions raised by them as well.
You might mislead some, and I am sorry that you were misled, and did not know Christ so as to trust in Him. But those who belong to, hear, look to and follow Christ know that God is as He has shown Him to be. If there is something that one does not understand or know (yet)... they know that it will not be in contradiction to what He has shown of God.
But as for this... no one was ever promised that this life would not include both good... and bad. That is what 'Adam' chose for his children; some of whom are given the right to become the sons (children) of God, because of the way that God provided for them to come BACK to Life, and to Him.
2Tired... how is that for certain? How do you know that he did not warn people... but that there were none willing/able to receive His warning? - TEC
Um, because 250,000 people died.
Should we add poor communication skills to the list of charges too?
Tammy - So lets try out your callous answer with the bereaved survivor of the tsunami..
"But death is death. It comes to most everyone"
Good point Tammy. They just needed you to go and tell them all to man-up and stop whinging, its only death FFS!
All your bluster is nothing more than a lame attempt to ignore the actual question.
On Boxing Day morning 2004 god did nothing as a tsunami killed a quarter of a million men, women and children.
So far your favourite answer is that god was too dumb to work out how to stop the wave.
It's too foolish to dignify with a new number.
I'd reiterate: a believer in a God or power greater than himself , cannot by definition account for every action or non action of that being. Being unable to do so does NOT make the believer intellectually dishonest; quite the opposite. - Retro
If you emphasise the word EVERY then I agree with you.
I would stand by my accusation that blithely dismissing the pointless death of a quarter of a million innocent people with the excuse "its a mystery", is intellectual dishonesty.
Why the need for emphasis on "Every"?
The other is semantics. Of course, "it's a mystery" and "cannot account for" mean the same in this context. And PB never "blithely dismissed the pointless death of a quarter of a million innocent people"; those are YOUR words and spin.
Retro - I emphasised "every" because I agree it is unreasonable to expect a beliver to "account for EVERY action and non-action" of his or her god.
But that is not the challenge is it? You invented a strawman.
I am simply asking for a reasonable answer to why he allowed a quarter of a million innocent men, women and children to be wiped out by a tsunami that it would have been trivially easy for him to stop.
As for Pelican yes he did blithely dismiss the suffering of the victims. He even added a crybaby emoticon. Shall I go and find the post?
Red herring... strawman... I forget which fallacy you just used is called. Maybe Adamah can help us out with it:
They just needed you to go and tell them all to man up and stop whinging, its only death FFS!
I never said any such thing and I certainly never implied it.
Besides which... i am talking to YOU. You are the one using this disaster in your work to prove that God does not exist. Which don't even pretend that that is not your end game. Of course it is.
But why don't you do what you have suggested that I do, including the fallacious manner in which you suggest I do it?
Go and tell them that - on the plus side there is no God so they don't have to wonder why God did not stop the tsunami caused by natural movements of the earth (if they even WERE wondering why before you decided to tell them that God did not stop the tsunami because he does not care about them, or anyone, or that their god is just too weak and dumb and monstrous to save them) - but on the down side, they and all of their loved ones who died are just tough out of luck. No hope. No God. No Kingdom. No comfort. Shit happens. Sorry about your luck. You have no hope to ever see them or to have life again.
"It is the same with God. What has caused more needless deaths? Natural disasters or wars, famines and disease caused by human greed? But we want God to fix all our hurts for us even those we cause ourselves? Poor us…we war and pollute and destroy the earth but God allows the winds and the earth to have its way with us, what a travesty that is! "
The second paragraph asserts that humans cause "more needless deaths". So we are agreed that god and humans cause needless deaths. You then criticise humans who complain because god "allows the winds and the earth to have its way with us" and conclude with the crybaby emoticon
You are the one using this disaster in your work to prove that God does not exist. - Tammy
I have explained 5 or 6 times that this is NOT my point.
The events of 26th Dec 2004 rasie a difficult question for theism. I want to investigate possible answers.
So far we have had 20. If anybody thinks the rational response to any of them is unfair please provide the number and your objection.
Your suggestion that god is too dumb &/or weak to stop the tsunami didn't qualify for new number. Sorry.