The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

  • cofty
    cofty

    Caliber - You ignored this point about your moral skepticism...


    Caliber - If you are correct then there is no foundation for us to make moral judgements.

    If permitting the unecessary deaths of a quarter of a million innocent men, women and children is actually a good loving and moral thing to do, then you and I no longer have the slightest clue what it means to be loving or moral. Our instincts cannot be trusted. It must be true that withholding help from somebody in peril is a virtue and interfering to prevent a violent death is a vice.

    The tsunami created thousands of orphans and widows with no means of support. If you are right this must be god's will. Maybe by giving to charity I am working against god. He must have wanted hundreds of thousands more destitute humans or he would have quelled the storm. He didn't, therefore the misery that followed must be a blessing in some way we can't grasp, because of course we are so foolish.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Caliber said-

    "Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your offspring after you, and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the livestock, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark; it is for every beast of the earth. I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth"

    How did the tsunami break this promise ?

    Caliber, I already covered that objection in my original response, when I said that some Xian apologetists will claim that since ALL flesh (currently 7 billion) didn't die (but only 250k people died), God didn't violate the Rainbow covenant (of course, since a Worldwide Flood is simply impossible anyway, it's easy to promise NEVER to do again what never happened, in the first place).

    And that's exactly why I said such catastrophic events questionably violate the spirit of the Rainbow Covenant, and quibbling on the grounds of not killing ALL humans by a flood comes off as simply laughable (and also why I said early Xians came up by massive death by FIRE in Armageddon, and not death by FLOOD: God promised NOT to drown ALL flesh, so that option was taken off the table).

    Not to mention, what if God violated the Rainbow Contract? There'd be no witnesses left to His breaking of His own Divine promise, and hence no one would be able to sue Him for breach of contract (perhaps in some theoretical Heavenly Court where Jehovah also wouldn't be serving as the Judge, and the angels wouldn't fear to act against God's Will)?

    In fact, a moment's thought should reveal the sheer silliness of God entering into contracts with humans, whether Mosaic or Noahide. It's merely the folly of ancient Jewish men who wrote a narrative to justify their own authority to rule over other humans... The "smoking gun" is seen in many scriptures, including Genesis 9.

    Caliber, you really need to see films as "The Usual Suspects", "Wizard of Oz", "The Invention of Jying", paying careful attention to the themes of creating the ultimate bogey men in order to fear and control others. It's exactly what you see in the Bible, creating a God character in order to fool the foolish who believe in it.

    Adam

  • bohm
    bohm

    caliber: No it's a bit more like you allowed (not caused ) your child to suffer a painful operation... and then give comfort and gifts afterwards

    This "operation" you so fondly think God let child after child endure is for instance to see his mom and dad die, have his legs crushed and then slowly starve and shit himself to death in a cholera-infected refuge camp all because his mom and dad was not warned so they could not flee?

    I understand why you prefer to use sanitized words like "operation" to describe other peoples pain; much like "bombing the shit out of people who happend to be at the wrong place" is called "collateral damage" and every crappy dictatorship has its own words for killing people they do not like, but for some reason the ideas still smell when you scratch their surface...

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    Cofty, your post 10432 is a fantastic summary. After reading that post compared to the OP of your conversation, I predict that the next pastor that tries to re-convert you will face a tsunami of logic.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Thans Billy - Pastor John invited me to drop in for a cup of tea anytime. I think I might take him up on his offer and make him my "special project".

  • tootired2care
    tootired2care

    Wow, over 10k views reached on this thread.

  • tec
    tec

    An all-knowing god would be aware on the earthquake under the Indian Ocean before it happened and could have quelled the wave at its source without any human ever being aware. Not in order to impose his presence any anybody but purely as an act of love. That's what I would have done which makes me far more moral than your god.

    And the physical consequences of doing that? Do you know what those would be?

    Peace,

    tammy

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    "And the physical consequences of doing that? Do you know what those would be?"

    Saving 250,000 lives is "consequences"? Or are you going back to #18 on his list that he already responded to.

  • tec
    tec

    Not surprising 2tired. The other thread on this "age old question" reached 75 pages and had over 25 000 views before it came to an end. Massive thread.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec

    No, Billy. The physical consequences of 'quelling the wave at its source'... like cause and effect?

    Peace,

    tammy

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