The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences

  • tootired2care
    tootired2care

    When you purchase a home, the seller must disclose any issues with the house or they are liable to be sued. The loving god portayed in the bible would not even meet the basic criteria for a home seller.

    Is it too much to ask for an almighty, all-knowing, all-loving god who supposedly created this home just for us to at least provide a basic set of public buidling, health and survival guidlines on things like: where not to build; how to avoid random cyclones, and diseases; how to detect a total extinction level asteroid? If he did this, he wouldn't even have to intervene. Why didn't your loving god provide such disclosures?

  • tec
    tec

    Well, no one on this thread believes that God sent the tsunami... or other 'natural evil' (a term not familiar to me, but familiar to you I guess, from your former faith) The harm caused by man is from man; death and sin (and so sickeness, etc) came from the fall.

    So your question actually is... why does God not prevent suffering?

    In this particular thread, you mean suffering from natural events. Well, some 'natural' disasters are not as natural as we believe, even if we do not see/know where the cause originated. Some natural events produce tumultous results... but without those events and results (physical) life would not be possible at all. Snare shared earlier in this thread how fresh water is a result of the plate tectonics that cause earthquakes, that cause events such as tsunamis... and you fail to present any other alternative, as you do not have the knoweldge or understanding TO present another alternative, or to even know if another is possible for physical life. That people live in areas that are higher risk from these known natural results is going to bring natural consequenes... at least as long as we are trapped in physical vessels, and so subject to physical ailments.

    Besides all that, His Son also told us that such things would come in various places. So it is not like we did not know and were not forewarned.

    On top of that, We, are our brothers' keepers. Yet WE continue to oppress, gossip, harm, kill, maim, orphan, cast aside, judge, look down upon, etc... our fellow man. But if we spent even a tenth on saving life as what we spend on taking life (making war and neglect of those in need, exploiting others for our own gain, etc), then WE could have discovered a way to prevent those deaths from natural events. Instead, some will blame God, and NEVER look in the mirror to determine what He did to contribute to those deaths or failed to do to prevent them.

    So hypothetically God could save man from the small percentage that die in natural disasters, freeing man up to continue to kill/maim/injure/orphan/neglect/hate/harm one another in great percentages... rather than work toward helping his fellow man?

    On top of that, I am reminded of these words from the prophet Isaiah:

    "Is this not the kind of fasting I have chosen:

    to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke,

    to set the oppressed free and break very yoke?

    Is it not to share your food with the hungry

    and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter

    when you see the naked, to clothe him

    and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

    THEN your light wil break forth like the dawn,

    and your healing will quickly appear;

    then your righteousness will go before you,

    and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.

    THEN you will call, and the LORD will answer;

    You will cry for help, and He will say: Here am I.

    If you do away with the yoke of oppression,

    with the pointing finger and malicious talk,

    and if you spend yourselvess in behalf of the hungry

    and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,

    then your light will rise in the darkness,

    and your night will become like the noonday...

    Man does not do what God has told Him to do... but man thinks that God is still obligated to do what man wants/demands that He do?

    I am speaking generally here of course. Some DO listen and show that they love and belong to God, through His Son, and He does hear them and their prayers. At the same time, these ones KNOW that this life as it is right now includes death. But that the promise to them and their children; their house; is for LIFE... because life is IN them. Life that is in Christ, becasue Christ is in them.

    In the meantime, until the Kingdom of God IS here and we see the results of what living in His Kingdom are (life and NOT death... no more pain and no more suffering)... live, love, serve, help, work, give, and BE your brothers keepers.

    Peace to you,

    tammy

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    Welcome Viviane!

    Interesting that you chose your first post on this thread. Isn't it nauseating to think that we used to worship such a weak and loveless god that is still harboring a grudge because a naked lady listened to a talking snake and ate an apple?

  • bohm
    bohm

    Hello Viviane and welcome!

    If you feel like it, you could tell your story to introduce yourself.

  • DS211
    DS211

    Tec said-- e, but familiar to you I guess, from your former faith) The harm caused by man is from man; death and sin (and so sickeness, etc) came from the fall.

    One could agree that mankind didnt get sick until after sin....however what was the point of a virus, or harmful bacteria prior to the fall. God created everything, therefore he created viruses and germs that make people sick....I may be incorrect but maybe this fits into the natural evil? Not sure but either way how do u explain it? Why woukd God have created the virus or bacteria prior to mans fall? Unless, maybe, it evolved.....

  • tec
    tec

    Tammy, I know how much you want to believe that the world is beautiful and overseen by a loving God who will make everything work out in the end; that this life is just temporary, and the real life is yet to be realized. Unfortunately, reality is a stubborn intruder.

    Glad... no, I don't.

    This world is not beautiful. It has beauty IN it, certainly, and that can be appreciated and some can even find awe in that. But it also has horror and death and travesty and injustice and lack of love, etc, etc. This is still real life also. But it is not the Kingdom of God. Not home... at least it has been overrun.

    Here on this hostile planet we have to deal with reality. The reality of natural disasters, disease and death.

    Yes, I have not said different.

    We would all like things to be different and science work towards that end.

    Sometimes science works toward that end... but it just as often works toward bring more death and better ways to kill or oppress, etc. Well, not science per se... but man USING science to do such things.

    It is difficult to believe that there is a God who with the power to act, who has done nothing for millennia.

    I know that it is difficult for some to believe that there is a God, while there is also suffering. That doesn't mean God has done or does nothing. But a pain free or suffering free life is not what we have been promised here. That comes in His Kingdom, something that this world is NOT.

    Peace to you, as always,

    tammy

  • tootired2care
    tootired2care

    Investigations happens, facts are collated and analyzed and tests are performed. There would never be a wait and see approach, but rather an approach of "well, let's go see what's in cupboard, if there are pots and pans, things we can cook, oh look, we have ingredients for pudding, let's make that and feed everyone". We see this today in things like flu vaccinations where natural causes have killed millions, yet science has provided, not a perfect solution, but a way to save millions, we see those claiming "It's a mystery" happily partaking of the advances and answers that they claim we should just wait and see what the answer is, or that it's a mystery. - Viviane

    Welcome to the forum Viviane, and well said!

    In all of recorded history it's only science that has done anything to address the big problems facing mankind.

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    "Well, no one on this thread believes that God sent the tsunami."

    When you read the OT, God happily takes credit for many such natural disasters. And he's taken credit for killing thousands of random Jews because David took a census. There are plenty of Christians that believe that god is actively killing people because of the sins of others.

  • tec
    tec

    One could agree that mankind didnt get sick until after sin....however what was the point of a virus, or harmful bacteria prior to the fall. God created everything, therefore he created viruses and germs that make people sick....I may be incorrect but maybe this fits into the natural evil? Not sure but either way how do u explain it? Why woukd God have created the virus or bacteria prior to mans fall? Unless, maybe, it evolved.....

    Assuming that such was present before the fall... some bacteria etc is beneficial, aiding life. But yes, even that does evolve, and could have evolved from beneficial to... harmful, or evolved altogether. I would assume as you do that bacteria, etc, falls under 'natural evil', as well.

    Also... God did not create everything. He did not create evil, despite the verse that makes that claim in the bible. God SEPARATES good FROM evil... Light FROM darkness.

    How did evil get here then? Like a virus itself perhaps... from our choices. Anything that does not come FROM love can and does cause harm to someone or something, even if we do not see that ourselves.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • PelicanBeach
    PelicanBeach

    Bohm,

    Okay now we are getting somewhere :-).

    Suppose I claimed I was the most moral person on earth, but I at the same time left the person to die in the forrest.

    If I believed your claim that you were the most moral person on earth then I would say you must have had a good reason for letting that man die in the forest. But now if I did not believe your claim to be the most moral man on earth I would likely think you left the man to die for reasons which may not be all that good or noble.

    Would me leaving the person to die in the forrest lead you to conclude I was (with very high probability) not the most moral person on earth? (ie. you would be far more sceptical of that claim than you might be of other reasons?)

    I think you may like this answer: It all depends on how much I trust that you are who you claim to be. For instance, I know my daughter, I trust her. If she should find herself some day in a situation where she allowed someone to die rather than call for help I would believe she must have had good reason. But if I did not trust my neighbor, believing him to be a no good fellow, I would probably feel differently if he allowed someone to die without calling for help.

    I trust in God. I know Jesus from what his disciples wrote about him. So my view would be quite different from someone who did not trust in God or his Son.

    So there I've handed you a "flawed" Christian defense to do with as you will.

    Pelican

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit