Questions on Evolution and the Existence of God and...

by ILoveTTATT 130 Replies latest jw friends

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I like your questions. Don't be in a hurry to answer them. Allow them to simmer and throw them at new observations as you grow. Let the war rage in your mind, and a fine mind it is, to sharpen your intellect.

    About the question of a benevolent, all-knowing, all-powerful God. The question challenged to the believer is, how can an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God allow injustice and cruelty? I've concluded "he" couldn't. One could then either say that God does not exist, or else we've mis-characterized God. We could go with all-knowing, all powerful but cruel. Or we could go with all-loving but powerless.

    Regarding observing human evolution in our lifetime, we may be seeing it.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/juan_enriquez_will_our_kids_be_a_different_species.html

  • Cadellin
    Cadellin

    Greetings, Chemical Engineer:

    You've already received some good responses here, esp. from Cyrus but because I am who I am, I'll put in my two cents as well:

    1. If evolution says that only the best survive, and we humble humans, self-named Homo Sapiens Sapiens, are the most intelligent species on this planet, why aren't we the ONLY species?

    We weren't the only species of hominin, up until around 18,000 years ago. For the vast majority of the genus Homo's tenure (1.5 million years or so), there have been multiple species co-existing. That is the norm. So what made the difference? Hard to say, except that Homo sapiens as a species seem to be very, very good at getting rid of competitors. Still, we co-existed alongside Homo neanderthalensis for about 160,000 years. The simple answer is that we just don't know for sure why we're the only ones left.

    As Cyrus and others pointed out, the species that survive are the ones best able to adapt to a changing environment. Intelligence doesn't have a whole lot to do with it, up until a point. At a certain point in H. sapien's past, we started being able to control our environment, rather than the other way around. That was a significant turning point in our ability to cope/adapt/thrive on a fickle planet.

    Has actual evolution, i.e. the changes accumulating sufficiently to make ANOTHER species, been observed? If so, where? I would think that the smaller the species/the faster time to reproduce, the better chances to actually observe this.

    I think you already answered this question in an earlier post. Remember that "species" as a term is an invented concept with discrete boundaries, superimposed onto a natural phenomenon that is fuzzy around the edges, as things tend to be in the biological world.

    What you need to do is read a few good books, like Stephen Coyne's Why Evolution is True, Carl Zimmer's Evolution--the Triumph of an Idea, Richard Dawkins' The Ancestor's Tale (well, anything by Dawkins, really. The Blind Watchmaker, River out of Eden, Climbing Mount Improbable) or Prothero's Evolution: What the Fossils Say. Fortey's Life--A Natural History of The First Four Billion Years is also good.

  • prologos
    prologos

    candellin: on the neanderthal disappearance, (almost) They were not the first choice for mates, not really beautifu, not really too handsome, so only stray genes are left today.

    choice rather than brute force prevailed.

    if there is a creator*, he loves success.

    loving mothers , faithful fathers are successfull.

    if you are successfull, you have succession.

    evolution at its best.

    *the pesky evidence, creation,or existence, he LEFT BEHIND wwill not go away soon,

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    You assume that we are something special, a more favourable evolution, a more evolved state..... This is not the case.

    It is truly awesome that the universe has progressed from a singularity to spinning planets, to spontaneous biology, to complex and aware human beings staring out to the same universe voicing the frequenciess that sound out "How? Why?", but we were not the first species on the planet to look out, we are the current one...

  • prologos
    prologos

    S&R, yes, you said it "progressed", and of course we are the first species to wear spectacular spectacles, the new jersey horn to detect/ discover the background glow, hubble's earlier and now Space telescopes.-- looking back too,-- via reconstructing the past with CERN.--

    Answereng many of the HOWs but how about the by what? whom perhaps? why? any closer?

    it is good that we have at least eliminated by default the personal, tribal god pretender claims. and their one-off made from the dust species fables..

  • cofty
    cofty

    There is no answer to "why".

    Its like asking what is the colour of calculus or what does classical music smell like?

  • adamah
    adamah

    Cofty said-

    There is no answer to "why". Its like asking what is the colour of calculus or what does classical music smell like?

    Yup. Prologos picked up on word "progressed" in SNR's explanation, which is slightly problematic, since it could be misunderstood to imply some pre-existing directionality (as if there's a 'plan' or 'blueprint' to evolution).

    Instead, SNR was likely referring to the directionality of time, which progresses in one direction, only (as we experience it). Einstein said time is only a persistent, stubborn illusion, but even if it IS, then virtually all humans who've even lived would agree that it's a pretty-damn-convincing illusion!

    But back to Cofty's point: simply because a question can be formed in a manner that respects the rules of grammar does NOT automatically mean that humans are entitled to 'the answer' handed to us on a silver platter by the Universe; we shouldn't assume that such answers even exist!

    That's part of the uncertainty of existence, the sense of not knowing that often creates anxiety in the minds of many; however, it's advisable to get comfortable and embrace what we don't know, and merely try to find answers to those questions which can be framed in an addressable form (i.e. to frame questions as hypotheses which can be falsified via testing).

    At any rate, it's a waste of time to ask malformed questions, only to fill them with imaginary non-answers, since that's what men have done since antiquity, but we only progressed our understanding of the World by starting to ask questions which can be resolved.

  • ILoveTTATT
    ILoveTTATT

    Ok so I am getting it...

    Species A reproduces and there is a species Aa and a species Ab. Species Aa is more suited to survive the change in environment and therefore ends up surviving... Perhaps species Ab also can survive but need to move to a different place where the conditions are more favorable to its survival. This is why there are multiple species with different evolutionary paths...

    Ok granted... Now for the next set of questions: The factors that make us human, have they evolved evolution itself? Have we somehow avoided or changed the nature of the game?

    (I am great at math, I suck at writing... Hope someone understanda my question).

    My other concern is with Intelligent Design. Something that seems designed does not necessarily mean that there was someone intelligent behind it. Case in point is snowflakes and crystal structures... No design there, it's just physical laws at work. However, a painting of a child, no matter how crude it is, clearly had a designer behinf it.

    Keep in mind, my arguments come from the one-sided Watchtower viewpoint, so in all likelihood there is something I have not considered.

    There are many complex structures in biology that just seem to me like they were designed; for example, the way that veins and arteries are placed in some animals to resemble a counter-current heat exchanger, instead of them being separate and losing body heat? What process in evolution explains apparent design?

    Please let me know what I should read to enlighten me. I want to know both sides of the argument, and I already know that one side was cheating and lying.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    We are probably going to be governing our own evolution from here on out, yes. People will object at first, but I think eventually we will be filtering out genes that code for criminality, as well as simplifying the genome and then making improvements to the simplified code. It's just like programming, and I wish I would get the opportunity to contribute to an open source Improved Human Genome project, but it will probably come after I'm senile or dead.

    Unfortunately, we may also be doomed by our own evolutionary path up to this point. For instance, look at how many people are tribalistic and opportunistic and narcissistic. These traits exist for good reasons from Mother Nature's standpoint, but they may hold us back or cause our self-destruction due to being unable to responsibly handle the powerful tools we've invented. Personally I'm guardedly optimistic... I think the biggest danger to our future will be an uprising by the robots we will soon start building. No, really.

    But Nature doesn't play favorites. If we screw up badly enough and go extinct, life will go on, and the universe will too.

    I'm not sure what your second question is. Naturally evolution tries out various designs and what works, sticks around. The only needed ingredients in "natural design" are lots of time, and variation in environments. If the universe came about accidentally and did not possess the self-ordering traits that it does, we wouldn't be here to observe it. So we cannot infer intent from apparent design because we don't have the ability to see the big picture.

  • adamah
    adamah

    IluvTTATT said:

    Species A reproduces and there is a species Aa and a species Ab. Species Aa is more suited to survive the change in environment and therefore ends up surviving... Perhaps species Ab also can survive but need to move to a different place where the conditions are more favorable to its survival. This is why there are multiple species with different evolutionary paths...

    Well, members of the same species typically migrate to different areas to expand the range and to find new food sources, and they MAY diverge apart from the other group, due to different environmental conditions; it's the change in environment that leads the process, and those that survive pass on their genes. Of course, genetic mutations develop at a fairly constant rate (due to coding errors during mitosis, and radiation, etc), so it's not like the animal consciously decides to adapt as if to ANTICIPATE the need: that's not how evo works. If a mutation proves to be advantageous under those different conditions, then the members are more likely to survive.

    Here's a short video on how ring species arise, posted by YouTuber Potholer 54:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb6Z6NVmLt8

    There's also a classic example of ring species seen in salamanders in CA:

    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/devitt_01

    (click on 'next' on that page to read the rest of the article.)

    IluvTTATT said: The factors that make us human, have they evolved evolution itself? Have we somehow avoided or changed the nature of the game?

    Oh, without a doubt.

    We're the first species to understand evolution and our understanding of medicine has altered the results of 'natural selection', since eg someone who would die of a certain disease in childhood a century ago (eg due to measles/mumps/rubella) would not face that pressure, since we now have modern vaccines that prevent deaths from these killers. Point being, what used to be a selection pressure that affected the gene pool has largely been eliminated as a factor (at least in populations that have access to the vaccine, since death still occurs in 3rd World countries in 2013 in areas like Asia and Africa).

    In fact, even the individual decisions of humans has a slight effect on evolution, eg those who make bad decisions aren't called candidates for "The Darwin Awards" for nothing! So those eg who die in the name of refusing blood are actually participating in their own 'natural selection' (although the odds of dying from refusal of blood transfusion are likely low-enough to make that factor a weak selection pressure). Same goes for those who refuse vaccines for their children, due to trusting a certain famous celebrity blondes who are stars of film and TV (weak pressure, at best, but still an example of selection at work).

    IluvTTATT said: My other concern is with Intelligent Design. Something that seems designed does not necessarily mean that there was someone intelligent behind it. Case in point is snowflakes and crystal structures... No design there, it's just physical laws at work. However, a painting of a child, no matter how crude it is, clearly had a designer behind it.

    Sure, but remember there's a fundamental difference between the rules governing carbon-based life and that of other atoms: just saying, the rules for living matter are governed by organic chemistry, and are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from other inorganic (non-living) matter. Apparent design observed in living creatures is NOT equivalent to apparent design seen in say, a cave drawing: to assume otherwise is a false equivalency, since all prior examples of rock drawings have required someone to draw it.

    IluvTTATT said: There are many complex structures in biology that just seem to me like they were designed; for example, the way that veins and arteries are placed in some animals to resemble a counter-current heat exchanger, instead of them being separate and losing body heat? What process in evolution explains apparent design?

    Of course, the concept of counter-current heat exchange arose much later than when it was discovered in cold-weather animals, where it likely serves as a way to conserve energy required to maintain the organism's core body temperature; noting such similarities between designs and physiological function only was possible AFTER science discovered the dynamic existing in animals.

    But why does it exist? Same reason as any other adaptation: it provides better survivability to organisms that have the trait in a certain environmental condition, and eventually the trait may become found throughout all members on the species by increasing the frequency of the trait in the gene pool such that the trait MAY become 'fixed' (unless some random mutation occurs: if it does, the progeny with the less-advantageous mutation may die off before reaching the age of reproduction, maybe even being aborted by it's mother or soon after birth if it mutates into a lethal disadvantageous trait).

    Something to keep in mind is that some mutations get expressed rather late in life (i.e. AFTER the organism reaches the age of reproduction and manages to pass its genes to their offspring before they can harm the organism). These types of mutations are not susceptible to natural selection (or only weakly selected against), since the organism passes on it's genes BEFORE they can express in the parent so it can be selected against.

    A great example of that situation is Huntington's chorea, a genetic disease that results from a mutation which can express in a late-onset form, hence the mutation avoids the 'culling effect' of natural selection, since it cannot act on traits BEFORE they are expressed:

    http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/medicine_05

    IluvTTATT said: Please let me know what I should read to enlighten me. I want to know both sides of the argument, and I already know that one side was cheating and lying.

    When I first learned about this stuff, I didn't think much about "sides", but was simply too fascinated in learning what IS known, since it was "no contest": the Bible doesn't offer anything like evolution, since "God Dun It!" is not an explanation of actual mechanisms, but simply a non-answer, a inquiry-stopper. The difference quickly becomes apparent once you start learning about how evo operates.

    Adam

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