What is your view on the true meaning of the feeding of the 5000 and 4000?

by Bart Belteshassur 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Bart Belteshassur
    Bart Belteshassur

    I have always been somewhat amazed that the JW and general Christian view on both these events only focus on the supernaturel abilities of Chirst to provide to the hungry mutitudes. This is then used as evidence that he will and is feeding and providing for all on earth and thus is an indication of his loving and giving nature.

    As a simple and dismissive explaination of the factual material contained in both events and the complete disregard of the fact that the gospels clearly state that the events have a far more significant meaning that even the twelve appear not to understand, and is never explained by Christ, I am of the view that these two events and those which are associated with them must hold a much higher significance than any Christrain religion has ever given them, due to their lack of understanding also.

    Has anyone ever looked at these events more closely? Has anyone on this ever come up with an explaination with to regard to the No of loafs, No of fish, and the No of baskets of fragments, and also their timing in the year and week when they occured?

    Please help me get my head arround these questions if you can?

    BB

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    The crowds were hungy. He had the ability to feed them, so he did. Imagine starving while listening to a sermon about better times ahead? That would be like sitting at a JW convention and hearing them talk about charity. Jesus, on the other hand set an example on how his listeners should provide for one another physically and spiritually after he was gone. That was something the self-appointed religious leaders were not doing.

    I think it's that simple.

    DD

  • Bart Belteshassur
    Bart Belteshassur

    DD- Are you suggesting then that the numbers and details written into these passages have no purpose and are just irrelevant? Seems to me that the four goseples which carry the events of the 5000 must view it with the importance of the crucifixion, and therefore it has much more significants than we tend to give it credit.

    Is the surface story just milk for the babes?

  • eyeuse2badub
    eyeuse2badub

    Only those present to hear Jesus preach got fed! Sounds like the model of many churches that feed the hungry in their community who first listen to a sermon by the local minister. It would have really been impressive if Jesus would have fed ALL the hungry people in Israel.

    eyeuse2badub

  • pixel
    pixel

    Well, the WT/FDS/GB use this as an application to them. "Jesus feed many through the hands of a few " as they say. This is not about feeding hungry people, is a profecy about the FDS/GB/WT all along!

    NO!

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    I don't know if the actual numbers mean anything. I could make something up, and you could all worship the mighty GB/DD?

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Bart:

    Interesting thought that you postulate.

    • Matthew 14:14-21 - Starting with 5 loaves & 2 little fishes; Ending with 12 baskets full of leftovers.
    • Matthew 15:32-39 - Starting with 7 loaves & "a few little fishes"; Ending with 7 "provision baskets" of leftovers.
    • Presumably, the leftovers refers to the loaves; the fish bones and pieces being discarded.

    Both 7 and 12 have significance elsewhere. Thus the question, Did Matthew or Jesus intend any significance to these numbers? Or was that simply the chance beginning and ending numbers?

    The NICNT-Matthew commentary (R. T. France, pp. 558-59) has some thoughts in its introduction to Matthew 14:13-21.

    [Start quote]

    The consistancy in reporting the numbers reflects the way oral stories are passed on, with the key elements maintained even when the surrounding narrative is differently framed. In this case there is the further consideration of comparison with the second feeding miracle, where the numbers are different (and, again Matthew and Mark agree on them). The point was clearly significant, as both sets of numbers are taken up in the discussion in the boat in 16:9-10 - and in Mark's fuller version the numbers are repeated in greater detail.

    The significance of the verbs used becomes clear when the five Synoptic feeding narratives are compared with the three Synoptic accounts of Jesus' eucharistic action at the Last Supper. In all eight pericopae we find the same sequence: "took . . . blessed/gave thanks . . . broke . . . gave."The same sequence of verbs also occurs in Luke 24:30, where Jesus "presides" at the meal at Emmaus. This can hardly be accidental, and suggests that the evangelists framed their accounts of the feeding (and of the Emmaus story) to reflect the wording of the eucharistic formula with which they and their readers were by now familiar. The feeding of the crowd is therefore presented as a "foretaste" of the central act of worship of the emoergent Christian community, even though the menu was not quite the same. And since the Last Supper was itself a foretaste of the messianic banquet ([Matthew] 26:29), that dimension, too, can be legitimately be discerned in this story.

    [End quote]

    There is more of interest in the commentary, but I thought I would stop for the moment and mention an interesting difference between the significance that the commentary finds versus the significance that the Society finds in the narratives of the feedings.

    The Society always highlights the millenial significance in the feedings. The NICNT commentary mentions that as a legitimate thought that can be discerned from the stories. But the NICNT commentary also highlights the close connections the stories have with the Last Supper narrative. This aspect is totally ignored by the Society, which, by chance, is totally against participation in the Last Supper by "the crowds."

    In regard to the actual numbers, I didn't find any thing significant other than the fact that the largeness of them gives some indication of how great the miracle was. The gospel accounts don't seem to press their significance beyond that aspect.

    Incidentally, in connection with the Society's idea of "feeding the many by means of the few," see my post here. Also compare Luke 6:17, which describes a time is prior to the feeding of the 5000 in Matthew 14:13-21. Jesus already had "a great crowd of his disciples." Hardly the "few" that the Society would like you to think of with regard to spiritual feeding. It wasn't until sometime after this feeding that "many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him." (John 6:66)

    Take Care

  • Splash
    Splash

    5,000? 4,000? Plus women and children?

    If the WTBTS were in charge at the time there wouldn't have been these useless rounded up figures, there would have been an invitiation to the event, a form handed out to the household heads, and an accounting at the end.

    The left over food would have been collected up by those qualified and assigned for such a privilege, along with an encouragement to contribute some of the food you were about to eat, and that would have been taken back to the temple for the priests to eat.

    Having been fed there would be instructions on how to show your gratitude, and another form for how much time you spend showing your gratitude during the subsequent months.

    Splash.

  • Bart Belteshassur
    Bart Belteshassur

    Eyeuse2badub- Agreed.

    pixel- Yes forget the facts of the account and turn it to the spiritual food of the GB.

    DD- I think I'd rather worship the mighty DD, I'll get a response and alot more sense.

    BB

  • prologos
    prologos

    "Christian" writers competed with the tales of the romans, greeks, the other jews and all for sensational tales, so they upped the ante.

    loaves& fishes, water.wine, walk on wine (Imean water).

    they were looking for the credulous, they still are.

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