For all believers: I have a serious question

by confusedandalone 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jonahstourguide

    well, Comatose and tec have pretty much outlined the two options (that I agree with) based on which mindset you

    use. Its really a yes or no answer I suppose. Roll up and put your fifty down !!!!

    by the way, what does Syl mean?

  • adamah

    Jonahstourguide said-

    Well now, if the accounts are accurate and if i was there , unashamedly yes. If I would not then a sword would possibly have been run through me !!! It is all about survival based on current understanding,,,, cant find my smileys ggrrrrrr!!!

    The many of the accounts in the Bible of genocide and killing include those that stipulate the cold-hearted killing of FAMILIES and other non-combatants of the enemy, and rejoicing in taking the infants and dashing their skulls to the rocks, and then rejoicing in victory and praise to God. "But everyone else was doing it" is an excuse which doesn't fly with Moms everywhere in the last century: you think it'll fly now?

    Such actions, if engaged in today by any member of the Military would constitute war crimes against humanity since the actions violate every treaty in the book; the violators would be held to face trial and justice by the United Nations War Crimes Commission.The accused in similar war crimes trials (eg Nuremberg) have found out the hard way that "I was only following orders" didn't fly as a defense.

    But you'd do it now (in 2013), in the name of devotion to God?

    Bud, you need to reflect heavily on your moral code, since you're apparently still clinging to "stinking thinking" that explains why you became a member of the mindless mob, in the first place.

    TEC said- Are you asking what people would have done had they been born 4000 years ago in that culture and in that time and under those laws? Most (theist or atheist) would have done what was acceptable and expected of them 4000 years ago.

    My, oh my: how confusing all this time-shifting must be for believers. OF COURSE the answer must be asked TODAY, since we haven't yet invented time travel, have we?

    But nevertheless, you seemingly forget that you are holding the Bible out as a "perfect" moral code that's applicable and relevant to use as a moral guide, and thus it's reasonable to ask the question, since in case you forgit (sic), the Bible is supposed to offer guiding principles for use by those people alive TODAY.

    TEC said- Some would have seen from the law that mercy and love were greatest, and would shown those as best they could... and some would have used the law as a means to JUDGE and CONDEMN rather than show love and mercy. All depending upon what was in them. Same as today.

    And hence the problem: believers are forced to ultimately rely on THEIR own morality, which has often been atropied by misuse and neglect, having long-ago told themselves that blindly following the orders of a moral God is what is right ("might makes right"). It's a self-fulfilling prophecy which in their minds excuses ANYTHING they do.


  • KateWild

    confused - I believe in God, I think he gave us an internal sense of justice.

    But I cannot believe he wrote such nonsense in the Bible. If anyone ever gave me orders that went against my sense of what is kind, just and merciful, I would refuse and suffer the consequences.

    The Holocaust happened because good men did nothing, and others followed orders.

    confused, have you heard of the Milgram experiment? He tested subjects on their morals and following orders from authority. Quite interesting.

    I hope that gives you a believers perspective-Kate xx

  • pronomono

    I'm not currently a believer, but yes, without a doubt, yes.

    Why? Because my God told me to do so. He had proven himself to be my God through mighty acts and had now asked me to be his right hand man in executing justice among the nations. Being brainwashed, I would gladly do whatever God said to do. I've been there, done that, in a sense as a JW.

    Aren't JWs basically doing the same today, just without the bloodshed? Many that are converted out of their "worldly" religion to the JW faith can consider themselves as good as dead if they fall prey to the cult mentality. And the JW that converted him could easily be considered as one who took the life of that one. Because we all know from our time in as JWs, we had no life.

  • tec

    But nevertheless, you seemingly forget that you are holding the Bible out as a "perfect" moral code that's applicable and relevant to use as a moral guide, and thus it's reasonable to ask the question, since in case you forgit (sic), the Bible is supposed to offer guiding principles for use by those people alive TODAY.

    Are you serious? Do you not listen? All the conversations that you and I have had... and how I have described the bible as imperfect... COUNTLESS times... and you say this to me, that I am holding the bible out as a 'perfect' more code, or that I think the bible is suppposed to offer guiding principles?


    No wonder you don't get it Adamah. You don't listen. You don't even READ.

    I'm just...



  • pronomono

    An added thought, these ones weren't just committing genocide in the name of Jehovah. They were vindicating and sanctifying Jehovah's name. They were fighting for Jehovah's honor, to show him to be a jealous God, the only one worthy of worship. Again, JWs do this today in spiritual warfare, no matter what the cost.

    Unfortunately today, Jehovah doesn't provide the physical protection as he apparently did for his Israelite nation. No, he protects us spiritually, just as shown in the past drama. So it doesn't matter if you get raped, murdered, etc. in the course of your spiritual warfare. Jehovah will remember you.



  • Laika

    I'd like to think not.

  • jonahstourguide

    Well adamah,

    I hope your not referring to the mindless mob I've just become a proud member of. (12 posts)

    My answer is obviously in the time referred to in the question.

    Obviously you'd have rocks in ya head if you voted in the affirmative in 2013 AD.

  • EndofMysteries

    To your questions,

    First off, tons of scriptures imply that things which God supposedly commanded were not from him, but of another entity or humans. One example all will have heard was Stephen right before he was martyred quoting I think Isaiah, that while in the wildnerness they were not following God but Moloch instead.

    Another point.....if you recall I think it was Saul who spared some. He did not get in trouble because he spared some, but because he only spared the prized ones or the best.

    Another point.....When God was getting the Israelites out of Egypt, did he have them kill the Egyptians? When they were pursuing them did he have them defend themselves? Once they made the golden calf, things changed. Then they insisted on a human king down the road. Everytime they went againt or insisted having things done their way or like the nations are done, it resulted in things getting worse, allowed for corruption, etc.

    It's almost like that today w/ the GB, the JW's who are actually in because they don't want to take responsibility themselves or try to seek out God, but have another human tell them everything, to follow, etc, results are similar.

  • J. Hofer
    J. Hofer

    to be fair (assuming those stories have any historical background at all), and to stress godwins law, this indeed is a question similar to what would you have done if you were living in nazi germany during the 30s and early 40s (being of germanic descent that is). the answer is, nobody knows. different times, huge pressure, no way out.

    on the other hand, why would someone follow a god or f├╝hrer like that and hold up his morals now. why are there still nazis around in our time and age. why are there still christians around. hard to understand.

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