Armageddon question

caroline77

Who do JW's think is going to kill everyone at Armageddon?

How will it happen?

What is their evidence?

Who will be resurrected afterwards? Only JW's?

Bobcat

Caroline:

See my posts # 932 & 933 on this thread for an alternative view of the sheep & goats parable, which would impact the question of 'Who would survive the battle of Armageddon.'

This view might also be hinted at in Rev 11:18 -

"And the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth."

"The holy ones" is mostly used as a designation for God's people. So the addition of "those fearing your name, the small and the great," may allow for something similar to the 'vast mixed company' of Egypians who left Egypt with Israel.

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On the question of who will do the killing:

"Armageddon" is a "place" (whether symbolic or literal). According to the way Rev 16:16-21 delineates events, "the kings of the entire inhabited earth" are "gathered" there during the sixth bowl of God's anger, which is prior to the outpouring of the seventh bowl of God's anger (v. 17). The results of that seventh bowl include the "great earthquake," which includes the events described in Rev 16:19-21.

The only ones in that sequence of events directly affected by "heaven" are the ones in verse 21 who are pummeled by the hail. These correspond with "the rest" who are "killed off" by 'the king riding the white horse' (Jesus) in Rev 19:21.

"The great city" of 16:19a being split into three parts, if it is in fact an allusion to Ezekiel chapter 5, represent God's unfaithful people who receive judgment from God, but at the hands of humans.

The 'falling of the cities of the nations' of 16:19b may very well hint at much loss of life. It is parallelled in Matthew 24:29 and Luke 21:25, 26, which in the first century saw its fulfillment in the vast and bloody Roman civil war of 68-69 AD.

In Revelation 16:19, the 'falling of the cities of the nations' is a prelude to God's handing "Babylon the Great" his 'cup of wrath.' But chapter 17, which describes that judgment on "Babylon" has 'the ten horns and the wild beast hating the harlot' and doing her in. The 'hatred' of her may very well come from the events that precede her judgment (the falling of the cities), indicating some implication of the harlot in the preceeding events. At any rate, the actual killing of the harlot is described as being at the hands of humans.

The 'removal' of the 'mountains and islands,' being bracketed by Babylon's judgment before and the hailstorm after, would logically be "the war" described in Rev 19:19, 20. Even though in that account they (the kings of the earth and their armies) are described as being defeated by the rider of the white horse and his armies, other Bible accounts of this battle have them being killed off (at least in part) at their own hands (Compare Ezekiel 38:21-39:4; Haggai 2:22; Zechariah 14:13).

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On the question of who will be resurrected:

John 5:28, 29 describes those in the "memorial tombs" as "those who practiced good things" and "those who practiced vile things," which appears to be a merism.

Acts 24:15 similarly describes the resurrection as including "the righteous and the unrighteous." (Possibly another merism.)

1 Cor 15:23 describes them as "those who belong to the Christ," which, when compared with John 6:51 where he gives his "flesh in behalf of the life of the world," could conceivably include very many of humankind.

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I admit that this is not necessarily the published WT point of view. So whether "JWs" in general would agree with me is a question. (I think more likely most JWs would fall back on whatever the most recent published WT viewpoint is. Not all, but most.) But I hold that the above is an accurate exposition of what the scriptures cited above relate. Those scriptures would serve for me as "evidence" based on my holding of them to be the word of God. Whether they serve that way for others is something they would have to say.

Take Care

Bobcat

In connection with the idea of God putting 'hatred into the hearts' of the entities that destroy "Babylon the Great":

The WT holds that God will do this causing these entites ("the tens horns and the [scarlot] wild beast") to suddenly turn on Babylon. Part of this idea is based on the WT's interpreting of "the great city" in 16:19a to be the same as "Babylon the Great" in 16:19c. They neglect to consider that there is a second great city in Revelation, mentioned in 11:8. (Babylon is not referred to as "the great city" until 17:15) Also, the polysyndeton used to enumerate the events of 16:19-21 would individually seperate the events listed in 16:19-21, making 16:19a something different from 16:19c.

The WT idea is also based on an uncareful reading of Rev 17:16, 17. Rev 17:16 says, "And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot." But the "For" clause that follows says, "For God put into their hearts to carry out his thought . . . by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished." "Their hearts" that God puts something into is, by context, referring to "the ten horns." So, if God puts 'hatred for the harlot' into the ten horns, it leaves no reason given for why "the [scarlot] wild beast" hates the harlot. Instead, as 17:17 shows, God's "thought" that he puts into "their hearts" causes them to "give their kingdom to the wild beast until the words of God [related to the harlot] will have been accomplished."

This makes the 'falling of the cities of the nations' a much more probable reason for why "the ten horns and the wild beast" will hate the harlot.

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Concerning 'the great city being split into three parts' of 16:19a:

This may actually be a movement against all of Christianity, whether faithful and unfaithful. The account in Ezekiel 5 refers to a minor portion represented by a few hairs placed into Ezekiel's "skirt" as opposed to the three portions that suffer from God's judgment during the Babylonian siege of 587.

In the first century something similar happened during the Roman siege. A few Jews, the Christians, escaped, but the most suffered.

Timewise, this places Rev 16:16 in the same relative position (in relation to the "great earthquake" of Rev 16:18) as Matthew 24:15 is to the first century "great tribulation."

blondie

Who do JW's think is going to kill everyone at Armageddon? (Jehovah, Jesus, the anointed in heaven, angels--not humans, will only watch their salvation)

How will it happen? Elements of the UN will destroy all "false" religion then attack jws which is like touching God's eyeball and Armageddon will start.

What is their evidence? hahahaha

Who will be resurrected afterwards? Only JW's?

All who die prior to Armageddon except those at flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, will be resurrected (except Adam & Eve, Cain, Judas, Jewish religious leaders in the first century who did not repent before they died)

Phizzy

All a fiction based upon the ramblings of the "John" who wrote The Revelation, which was simply a tract for the time in which he wrote.

notsurewheretogo

Who do JW's think is going to kill everyone at Armageddon?

Angels...humans are told to "stand still and see the Salvation of Jehovah"

How will it happen?

It starts with a Great Tribulation where the UN attack false religion and end up attacking JW's last, this is like attacking Jehoover and He comes via JC and the angels, probably using the natural elements too and systematically destroys all unfaithful humans.

What is their evidence?

It says so in the bible, according to their interpretation.

Who will be resurrected afterwards? Only JW's?

No, everyone prior to the Great Tribulation will be brought back those faithful first, then the unfaithful...barring a certain few like Adam & Eve, Sodom & Gomorrah etc

Would that make them wake up to the unbalanced, and unrealistic, whole ridiculousness

Of this old fashioned, old time religion, snake oil, thinking?

LoisLane

fulltimestudent

Who do JW's think is going to kill everyone at Armageddon?

How will it happen?

What is their evidence?

Who will be resurrected afterwards? Only JW's?

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There is nothing too different from what other Christians (either, past or present) have believed.

Christianity has always tended to cataclysmic views: Matthew 11:20-24.

And quite prepared to hurl abuse at perceived enemies: Matthew 23: 27-28 and 33

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In connection with your last question - The witnesses suggest a very wide resurrection of billions.

Armageddon question

caroline77

Bobcat

Bobcat

blondie

Phizzy

notsurewheretogo

jgnat

Honesty

LoisLane looking for Superman

fulltimestudent

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