Hi Honesty and Cold Steel,
It's what the WT have always taught since I have been going to meetings, and I've never really reconsidered it in detail since knowing TTATT.
Splash
Marriage In The New World
by Cold Steel 55 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
sir82
I don't know but I bet the Mormons have an answer!
Seriously, do you think you are going to have success preaching Mormonism on an ex-JW board?
-
Bobcat
Dis-Member:
Let me ask this. Do you think it's possible to 'know' God and Jesus without having an extensive theological library and being able to quote from it with ease? Is it all about reading and study? More endless dead intellectualism.
How do blind people find God and Jesus, or deaf people, or people with severe mental problems, or people that are just not very smart.
Is God only really only for the educated? Is the only way to know God and Jesus by reading a book that is so massively open to being misinterpreted and twisted out of shape?
You'll have to ask someone in those situations. I use the tools I have acquired because I want to know. And I share what I've read for the benefit of anyone else who wants to know and doesn't have access to such tools. That is what the internet is about, in theory at least. And this is supposedly an open forum, allowing for diverse views.
I do agree that the Bible is "open to being misinterpreted and twisted out of shape." (2 Pet 3:15, 16) You'll have to decide for yourself how you want to respond to that possibility. And perhaps you already have. And the same goes for me. And, like you, I make no apologies for my choices.
I will also say this: Anything I write here is not necessarily intended for everyone that posts, such as yourself. There is a much wider audience on this forum than just those who post here. And among them are some who do not share your viewpoint.
But thanks for stating your views. It's good to have an idea of where you stand. If I direct a reply to you, I'll take your views into account in my reply.
Take care
-
ohnightdivine
Marriage in the new world or current world or outer world... whatever. Sign me up.
-
Apognophos
To build on my comment on page 1, about how I thought that the scripture about "being as angels" meant that existing marriages would be annulled going into the new system -- once I learned that this was not the JW interpretation, that those marriages would remain in place in the new system, I was terrified of the implication.
You mean I have to pick someone NOW, as an imperfect person, who I want to live with FOREVER? I could see examples all around me of Witnesses who seemed to have chosen wrong even for the short term, and who could predict what the marriage would be like 500 or 10,000 years in the future? I decided that there was no way to make an informed, wise choice while imperfect, therefore I could not get married until the new system came around.
It's funny how these sort of absolutist concepts like infinite life and perfection can lead one to bizarre conclusions.
-
Cold Steel
Apognophos: Adam and Eve won't get a resurrection (so they teach) because they were perfect when they sinned, thus they have no excuse. Being perfect, they were not in need of a ransom and thus it does not apply to them. Judas, of course, sinned against the holy spirit.
Yes, Judas was called the “son of perdition,” but even he will be resurrected because both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected. Actually, I was surprised you didn’t mention Cain, another son of perdition.
The Ethiopic book of 1 Adam and Eve states:
And to the north of the garden there is a sea of water, clear and pure to the taste, like unto nothing else; so that, through the clearness thereof, one may look into the depths of the earth. And when a man washes himself in it, becomes clean of the cleanness thereof, and white of its whiteness-even if he were dark. And God created that sea of His own good pleasure, for He knew what would come of the man He should make; so that after he had left the garden, on account of his transgression, men should be born in the earth, from among whom righteous ones should die, whose souls God would raise at the last day; when they should return to their flesh; should bathe in the water of that sea, and all of them repent of their sins. —1 Adam & Eve 1:2-4
We know that the Jews had many cleansing rites and baptisms in their day, and that baptism was known well before the time of Christ. This is why John baptizing people in the Jordan River was not treated as anything new by the gospel writers.
The pseudepigraphal Apocalypse of Moses 37:3 states that when Adam died, “one of the six-winged seraphim came and carried Adam off to the Lake of Acheron and washed him three times in the presence of God.” He was then conducted to the third heaven (vss. 5-6)
The Jewish sage Ben Sira wrote that “Shem and Seth were honored among men, but Adam is above every living being in the creation.” (Ecclesiasticus 49.16;(68)).
According to the scriptures, Adam lived a little more than 900 years. During that period, he raised up many righteous seed. He taught them the ways of the Lord. One scholar writes:
In the Apocalypse of Adam, the first couple are visited by three angels who awaken him and teach them about their origins and give them knowledge of the practice of baptism. Adam later passes on this knowledge to his son Seth and their descendants. These three angels are also found in the Mandaean Adam and Eve stories, where Manda dHaiye, a kind of angelic Redeemer figure, sends three kingly angelic messengers, called “uthras” to teach Adam and Eve the rituals which are necessary for this life and which will help them to ascend back to the place where God the “Great Life” dwells. Kurt Rudolph notes that the fundamental mission of these messengers of light to “instruct the faithful and redeem their souls.” (Source)
According to the Jewish book of Jubilees, “And on the day when Adam went out of the garden of Eden he offered a sweet-smelling sacrifice-frankincense, galbanum, stacte, and spices.” If Adam was to suffer annihilation at the command of Jehovah, why would all these traditions have Adam teaching his posterity the ways of righteousness and offering sacrifice? Was not Yahweh communicating with Adam as he did later prophets? Certainly if their parents were damned to this fate, how could Seth and Adam’s other children come to love God? Or did they shun Adam for 900 years?
Anyway, I’m stunned. There are other traditions of both Adam and Eve’s baptism and Satan’s efforts to prevent it. Again, these are traditions and not part of the canon, but usually traditions contain some truth, and if one uses common sense, one would have to realize that both Adam and Eve would have to know their own fates and that they would become part of tradition.
Shanagirl: Since that is a fleshly and organic point of view, and our spirit will return back to God, obviously there are other abodes to look forward to in the Father's Kingdom that is not fleshly or earthly.
Don’t fall for the old notion that everything that is “fleshly” is bad, as the Gnostics used to teach. Actually, there’s quite a bit of evidence that our spirits gaining a physical, resurrected and glorified physical body like Christ’s will be a significant upgrade. According to some traditions, spirits cannot efficiently channel energy, or “glory” as some put it. A perfected and immortal physical body will have all the advantages of being a spirit, plus significant advantages that we don’t yet fully understand. Recall that Jesus was resurrected a physical being and he made it quite clear he wasn’t a spirit, “for a spirit hath not flesh and blood as ye see me have.” So how did he pass through doors and ceilings? Also, after his resurrection, Jesus was able to appear while containing all of his glory, as a regular person who could eat and teach. Yet John, on Patmos, saw him appear in spectacular glory. If we, God’s children, can be resurrected in the same manner, we, as co-heirs of Christ, can span the Universe as beings of energy and visit the various creations of God, adapting ourselves at will to whatever environment we wish; and this wouldn’t be possible for a spirit.
Patrick45: Consider this part of Luke's rendering :"but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead." How could one be counted worthy of gaining a resurrection if everybody is going to be raised to everlasting life?
Check out I Corinthians 15. Paul teaches that there are many different resurrections, as different as the sun, moon and stars. For each of these differ in glory, and even the stars aren’t of the same glory. So, he said, is the resurrection of the dead. In fact, I recommend you read that chapter several times, as it’s the best teaching of the resurrection in the Bible, in my view.
“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (vss. 21-22) But, he adds, “But every man in his own order.”
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. (vss. 39-42)
So everyone will be raised from the dead. Furthermore, death and hell will both be destroyed. But some will have to pass through both. All men die, and the wicked will be subject to hell. But far from being a burning torment that lasts forever, it’s a torment of limited duration. God doesn’t create places of torture; it’s not in his nature. But man can torment himself, and often he’s his own worst accuser. There are some who have near death experiences who report that forgiving themselves for the horrible things that they’ve done is the worst torture they go through, and some find it impossible without outside help. But everyone will ultimately be raised, as Jesus died for all men.
.
-
Cold Steel
Sir82: Seriously, do you think you are going to have success preaching Mormonism on an ex-JW board?
Well, I try not to let Mormonism get in the way of good old fashioned first century Christianity, but they're so closely related that it's difficult. Mormonism, so called, is comprised of both biblical exegesis and NEW revelation, which is not found in the Bible. Like the ancient Christians, we believe we have ministerial authority and the ancient keys of binding both in Heaven and on Earth. We have a quorum of twelve apostles, as did the ancient church, and an open canon. (The idea of drawing a line and telling the Lord that He can reveal nothing more doesn't make much sense to us.)
But people always have their free agency and, unlike other faiths, we don't condemn all non-Mormons to Hell, or deny them a resurrection; neither do we promote shunning, which is a Godless practice, or the learning about other religions.
When I do go into Mormon doctrine, I always explain that they are my own views or those of the LDS faith (which is frequently challenged here). I don't mind, however, and people are always free to believe what they wish. But, you know what they say about opinions....
-
Dis-Member
Did not mean to offend Bobcat... I'm still searching so turning over every stone and pebble. No harm intended.
-
Bobcat
No offense taken. In a way I'm glad to have an attitude check.
Take care
-
Apognophos
Yes, Judas was called the “son of perdition,” but even he will be resurrected because both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected.
See, here's where the Witnesses get weird. They see three groups in the Bible, following the words used in the translation(s) they read: the "righteous", the "unrighteous", and the "wicked". The wicked (they believe) will not get a resurrection. The unrighteous will, based on the scripture about "the righteous and the unrighteous". So, in fact there are a whole bunch of people that JWs don't believe will be resurrected, but in most cases the Society is not willing to go out on a limb and pronounce Biblical characters as wicked; I only listed the three specific examples that I remember the Society being most clear on (the Society has at times thrown other people into the "wicked" category, such as with their famous flip-flop on Sodom and Gomorrah, where half of the time they believe that they were wicked and will not be resurrected because God destroyed them, and the other half of the time they think those people will be brought back to have a second chance in the 1000 Year Reign).
As I indicated before, regardless of whatever veneration might be given to Adam and Eve in non-canonical writings, as far as the Society is concerned, they're the lowest of the low; they were perfect and yet they chose to rebel against God. That puts them in the same boat as Satan. Judas is also unforgiveable because he sinned against the holy spirit in the biggest way imaginable. Personally, I no longer have faith in the Bible as God's Word, but I will admit that I thought this stance was logical from a Biblical standpoint. It's only recently that I'm wondering if the distinction between unrighteous and wicked is actually found in the scriptures and makes sense.