"Growing to perfection"

by DS211 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • clarity
    clarity

    Tammy ......... did you always understand this to be the

    teaching of jw's?

    >

    "Armageddon does not occur until the end of the thousand years.

    The resurrection of the dead (second resurrection) and judgment does not occur until after armageddon."

    >

    Or is this some new lite? OMG .....really ...where have I been!!!!!!!

    >

    I am leaning (heavally) toward Atheism so this matters little to me,

    but for my family still in .....omg again!

    >

    Would you post the scriptures that will show this please?

    thanx Tammy

    clarity

    >

  • tec
    tec

    Hi Clarity. What I posted is what Christ teaches (and what is written)... not what the jws teach. It is not "new lite". I am sorry for the confusion. I posted it to show that they do not even know when Armageddon occurs.

    I will post the scriptures for you though, that support as my Lord teaches. But I believe the jws simply interpret them differently.

    Keep in mind that Armageddon is a place... but the war of God... the fire that comes down from heaven: Revelations 20: 7-9

    "When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth - Gog and Magog - to gather them for battle. (compare below) In number they are liike the sands on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

    The goats... are part of gog and magog, living on the earth but outside of the kingdom and in the darkness. (the goats that Christ did not permit inside the kingdom, from the sheep and the goats parable, so that they remained outside in the darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.) After the thousand years, Satan is released and deceives them into coming against the Kingdom to take it for themselves. (gathering them for battle... and it is not the ones inside the kingdom that ride out for battle; they are just living in peace)

    THEN the resurrection of the dead occurs, after that battle is over. Revelation 20:12-15

    {As also is stated clearly in the verse (and the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years are over); which the wts twists to mean something else)

    But Rev 20:12-15

    "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged accoding to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found writtten in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

    There are not two battles of God... before the thousand years and after them. The jws are merging together the tribulation and Armageddon, and by their false teachings may decieve some into returning to "her" when the tribulation begins. But the tribulation... is something man commits against man; against those who claim to belong to Christ, and also those who do belong to Him at some point. Hence the call to come out of HER -"babylon, the harlot and adulteress... of which the wts and other christian religions are a part of. He calls his people to come out of her so that they do not share in her sins, because the world will turn on her first for all that she has done and all the blood that she has spilled; and those days are "cut short for the sake of the holy ones." (matt: 13:20)

    The kingdom of Christ is establish after the tribulation when Christ gathers his own (the holy ones)... and only after the thousand years is there the 'great battle'.

    If you look at the parallels in Revelation 16, as my Lord just showed me... in chapter 10, the throne of the beast is plunged into darkness. (the outer darkness that the goats are IN, upon the separation of the sheep and goats... shown to BE dark in comparison to the light of the kingdom), then the spirits of demons (the other part of gog and magog) go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them for battle (compare with above) on the great day of God Almighty, gathering them to the place called Armageddon.

    Again, I am sorry for the confusion.

    Peace to you,

    tammy

  • Comatose
    Comatose

    "As my lord just showed me"... Bahahahahahahahaha!

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    This teaching is an example of the sort of castles in the clouds that the Society likes to build. There's no scriptural basis for it (that is, not any reasonable one), but it does allow them to paint people with clothes on in the new system (they haven't attained Adam and Eve's perfection, i.e., childlike naivety, so they will still want to wear clothes), as well as to explain things like "How will we recognize our grandparents if they come back looking 30 years old and our parents aren't around to ID them?"

    Funny side story: An elderly Witness and I talking about the new light on the anointed going to heaven before Armageddon. She brought it up, not me, but when she said "it makes sense", I decided I had to challenge the nonsense subtly:

    Me: Yeah, that really makes sense to me too, because I used to wonder, How will the anointed who survive Armageddon get up to heaven if they live into the new system? At that point, wouldn't they be living forever on earth, so they'd never finish their earthly course?

    Her: (thinking) ...Well, we will be gradually growing towards perfection in the new system, so.... [Me, inside voice: So... what? People will die in the new system? WTF are you even saying?]

    Me: Oh yeah, that's true (pause) [inside voice: Haha, what?]. Well, who knows, I guess if they did live into the new system, it could have just happened like it did for Elijah... you know, the flaming chariots taking him up -- well, not to heaven in that case, but you know, it could be done that way [inside voice: Think, woman, think: didn't Elijah really get taken to heaven? Where else did he go? It wasn't a fricking amusement park ride to a mountaintop somewhere.]

    Her: ... (says nothing, conversation ends)

    I was really hoping she would bring up more of the new shite in the subsequent weeks after the July 15 WT studies, so I could make more smart-alecky remarks, but alas, I was disappointed.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Only the 'anointed' are raised with incorruptible bodies, so the JW teaching goes.

    The idea of 'growing to perfection' comes from the old understanding from Russell's time that 'the Christ' consists of 144,001 (Head and Body) - Jesus + 'anointed.'

    Anointed = Christ. Christ = the 'Seed' through whom all nations would be blessed.

    The 144,000 are joint-sacrificers, joint life-givers, etc., and share in Jesus' mediatorial role during the Millennium, administering blessings to the earthly people until all is restored and humankind is at one with God (atonement). The doctrine has been tweaked to remove or obscure some of the most (I guess) 'blasphemous' aspects, but the echoes remain today.

    References upon request if anyone wants to research further. No time to put them up now.

  • DS211
    DS211

    Eve if it were true the only ones actually mentioned as being on earth upon mount zion is the 144,000. The great crowd is before the throne....and unless the thone itself has moved to earth, psalms brings out that that throne is in heaven. So before the throne would seem to put the GC in heaven. I dont like debating rev with anyone because one can draw many conclusions and correlations between the scriptures because of all the symbolisms.

  • wokeup
    wokeup

    Here's a thought. Would it be righteous on Gods' part to resurrect people imperfect so they could grow to perfection? In effect,

    instilling Adamic sin into their new bodies? On the other hand, can you picture a post apocalyptic world where imperfect 21st century survivors

    are in charge initially of perfect asexual resurectees who's ancient knowledge and lifestyles are presumably restored into their

    memory banks? Perhaps useful in a machineless primitive paradise earth? Is this God's plan of salvation?

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Wokeup,

    Awesome point. Those perfect ancient dudes will accept counsel from 21st century window washers and janitors. Perhaps they will design the perfect, frictionless razor. We can't have all kinds of beards in the new world.

    DD

  • DS211
    DS211

    DD-- but we can have creepy mustaches :o€)

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    A more pertinent question I would like to see the WT answer is in connection with this Scripture:

    (Luke 20:36 NWT) In fact, neither can they [resurrected ones] die anymore, for they are like the angels, and they are God’s children [ftn. or "sons"] by being children of the resurrection.

    I thought the WT said they don't get adopted into God's "family" until after the 1000 years and the post 1000-year test.

    Jesus must be mistaken.

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