250,000 Jehovah's Witnesses have died refusing blood

by nicolaou 739 Replies latest watchtower medical

  • adamah
    adamah

    Marvin, did you simply skip over my question?

    If it helps, assume you're talking to a retired licensed physician, and here's another opportunity to answer the question (in red):

    Marvin said-

    For multiple reasons I have not asked Beliaev what he thinks of my extrapolations or whether he agrees, disagrees or thinks it at all possible to extrapolate as I have. Primarily I’ve refrained from these questions to avoid putting him into a potential quagmire that could occur in doctor-patient relationships he has or might have with current or future JW patients.

    Adam asked-

    What medicoethical and/or clinicolegal 'potential quagmires' were you worried about creating, exactly?


    Adam asked:

    “Surely you accounted for the differing legal policies that exist Worldwide for the protections of minors, who are protected in some lands by court order at different ages? If not, why was the age of '15' used in the study, when '18 yrs old' would've been a more conservative choice more applicable to Worldwide?

    “And hopefully you remembered to account for those baptized JW's who are under 15 y.o., but are nevertheless included in the total Worldwide JW headcount (the figure you used was 7.4 million in 2011) which you used to calculate your guesstimate?”

    Marvin said-

    My extrapolation assumes none of the JWs you mentioned died the result of refusing blood. This is another conservative aspect of my presentation.

    The problem is not with your extrapolation, but that while Beliaev's study excluded patients under 15 y.o., that obviously implies they may have INCLUDED patients in the 15-18 yr old bracket in both groups. However, they didn't report the number of patients in the 15-18 y.o. range (in either the 'BT' or the 'no BT' groups). There's no way to KNOW for sure how large these sub-populations were if it wasn't reported, which is critical to consider to avoid errors when extrapolating Worldwide. Hence that is ONE MORE ASSUMPTION you are simply dismissing as irrelevant, when you actually don't know if it's significant.

    To make matter worse, you are then extrapolating to the ENTIRE JW population Worldwide figure of 7.4 million, rather than attempting to remove from the figure the number of JWs who ARE baptized JWs under 18 (or whatever age and factor the Courts of the various lands of the World would use to step in to save their lives). With increased moves to push childhood baptism, this number may in fact be quite large, which is precisely WHY the JWs are pushing for childhood baptisms: to swell their ranks. But by extrapolating, you are assuming that Courts wouldn't intervene to protect minors in the 15-18 yr old age, which is hardly a "conservative" approach.

    That's CLASSIC propagation and amplification of error, and it undermines your constant claims of being "conservative"; simply saying it over and over (as if a prayer) simply doesn't make it so. You have only increased the uncertainty, and the fact is you really don't KNOW if you ARE conservative or liberal with your attempts to extrapolate.

    Adam

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    “If you were to present this statistic in a court of law going against the WTS. would it uphold itself as evidence or would the lawyers for the WTS. succeed in completely smashing it to smithereens?”

    The extrapolation would withstand criticism for this simple reason: It’s based on documented cases of mortality due to blood refusal and it makes conservative assumptions to avoid overstatement.

    The latter is something you seem to overlook.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    It’s based on documented cases of mortality due to blood refusal.

    Who's being intellectually dishonest now ?

    If its so understandably accurate and usable of a statistical model, why then does no one here agree with it.

    I guess we're all stupid people suffering from cognitive dissonance.

    I know its because we are not AAWA members.

    OK now I get it.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    “However, they didn't report the number of patients in the 15-18 y.o. range (in either the 'BT' or the 'no BT' groups). There's no way to KNOW for sure how large these sub-populations were if it wasn't reported, which is critical to consider to avoid errors when extrapolating Worldwide.”

    Does not matter.

    Inclusion in the control group was dependent on honoring a refusal of red cell transfusion, whether that refusal came from a mature minor, parent, guardian, or a wooden Indian standing outside a saloon.

    My extrapolation is of deaths due to refusing red cell transfusion.

    My extrapolation assumes deaths due to refusing red cells transfusion outside New Zealand’s healthcare system is no greater than deaths due to refusing red cells transfusion inside New Zealand’s healthcare system. Given the state of New Zealand’s healthcare system, I think that’s a pretty conservative assumption.

    Oh, and that question you asked is a red herring. Read.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Marvin I think you've been battling the WTS. too long, its time to take long vacation somewhere.

    Something about your rational sense of reasoning has gone askew.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    “If its so understandably accurate and usable of a statistical model, why then does no one here agree with it.”

    Coming from someone who does not understand that at-or-less than 8 dL means at-or-less than 8dL I think answering that question is unnecessary. Readers can make of this what they will.

    Otherwise, do you dispute the patients whose records indicated they are deceased are…what? Relocated to another city in a secret patient relocation program?

    Marvin Shilmer

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    and what about people who need total BTs which has nothing to do with their 8dL count, such as I stated previously ?

    What about the many circumstances of where BTs were needed but there wasn't the proper blood to administer.

    Does New Zealand have the exact number of JWs Per Capita as every other country in the world ?

  • adamah
    adamah

    “However, they didn't report the number of patients in the 15-18 y.o. range (in either the 'BT' or the 'no BT' groups). There's no way to KNOW for sure how large these sub-populations were if it wasn't reported, which is critical to consider to avoid errors when extrapolating Worldwide.”

    Marvin said- Does not matter.

    Inclusion in the control group was dependent on honoring a refusal of red cell transfusion, whether that refusal came from a mature minor, parent, guardian, or a wooden Indian standing outside a saloon. My extrapolation is of deaths due to refusing red cell transfusion.

    Like HELL it doesn't matter, LOL!

    Your extrapolation completely ignores the FACT that NZ law sets the age of consent at 16 y.o., meaning that patients are granted the legal right to refuse BT and die at 16 as they're considered as 'adults', where if they are under 16, the court would typically intervene to save their life as minors. No one, not their parents or the doctors, can give consent for a minor to die, since they're protected by law.

    Notice the age of consent in NZ is NOT 18 (the age used in many other countries (AU, US, etc) to define reaching the age of majority, AKA adult). Instead, it is SIXTEEN (16); people are considered legal adults at SIXTEEN (16).

    The problem is, you don't actually KNOW how many such pts (16-18 y.o.) participated in the study and died due to their legal right to refuse BT, where the NZ court system did NOT step in to save their lifes.

    That fact alone blows any attempts to extrapolate "conservatively" (as you claim), since the same 16-18 y.o. who lived in virtually any other country around the World wouldn't be able to exercise their "right" as an adult to die, as they wouldn't be able to do if they lived in say, AU (where the Hospital WOULD obtain a court order to force a BT on the minor, regardless of the wishes of the parents, since the AU 17 y.o. is protected by the Govt and NO ONE can give consent for a minor to die). Young people in AU are more-protected than those in NZ. You don't take that into consideration in your extrapolation.

    The lowered age of consent means there is an unknown number of 16-18 y.o.s in the NZ study who MAY HAVE rejected BT and died as a result (and been counted in the death by refusal group), whereas patients of the same age who lived in another country would be SAVED, even against their will, by the Court system in ANOTHER country (eg AU or US); the court would STEP IN to SAVE that 16-18 y.o.'s life.

    You're simply not accounting for the effect of Court-ordered life-saving intervention in your extrapolated number for Worldwide, and that is NOT a "conservative" assumption (HOWEVER MANY TIMES you MAY claim otherwise), since not knowing the number likely WOULD INFLATE your estimation considerably, especially since most countries around the World use a HIGHER age of consent and the courts WOULD intercede on behalf of the minor.

    Marvin said- Does not matter.

    My extrapolation assumes deaths due to refusing red cells transfusion outside New Zealand’s healthcare system is no greater than deaths due to refusing red cells transfusion inside New Zealand’s healthcare system. Given the state of New Zealand’s healthcare system, I think that’s a pretty conservative assumption.

    The Healthcare system has NOTHING to do with the question I'm asking (AKA red herring) but variations existing in the Court Systems and the age of consent laws used throughout the rest of the World (as described above).

    But even if you DO look at the healthcare systems, your claim is suspect, since you're ignoring specialty hospitals existing in larger population centers around the World, with surgeons skilled in 'bloodless' surgery, access to alternative treatments, etc.

    Adam

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    “and what about people who need total BTs which has nothing to do with their 8dL count, such as I stated previously?

    “What about the many circumstances of where BTs were needed but there wasn't the proper blood to administer.

    “Does New Zealand have the exact number of JWs Per Capita as every other country in the world?”

    Finkelstein,

    Any attempt to include JW deaths due to refusing “total BTs” would only increase the number of JWs dead due to Watchtower’s blood doctrine.

    Circumstances where blood transfusion is unavailable would equally affect mortality regardless of JW or non-JW.

    The per capita of JWs to general population from one nation to the next is irrelevant to the study at issue. Why you think it relevant is something only you know.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    Adamah,

    When I say it does not matter I mean it does not matter to my extrapolation.

    I don’t ignore anything you speak of above. It’s just that none of it makes a difference to my extrapolation because my extrapolation assumes no deaths other than those reported in the Beliaev study.

    In essence the Beliaev study provides a crude body count of deaths due to refusing blood. By “crude”, I mean it does not include anyone who did, may have or likely died due to any circumstance or scenario other than the incidents of the Beliaev study. This body count only includes the known mortalities discovered in Beliaev’s study.

    It is this hard count that is used against the population of New Zealand JWs that creates the ratio of deaths per capita. We can talk about alternate/unusual or unrecorded incidents/circumstances all we want and this hard count based on deaths discovered in the Beliaev study does not change.

    Marvin Shilmer

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