When did Theology Last add something to Human Knowledge?

by cofty 92 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Laika

  Well cofty, you asked a few different questions in your OP, including is theism obsolete...

  Personally I can't seperate theology from practice, and I think it has something useful to say for as long as it encourages good works and good feeling. You regularly assert that there are better reasons to do good than are offered by the religious, a subjective viewpoint anyway, but regardless, who cares if the reasons are more intellectually sound if they don't produce more action?

  Theism is at its best in the modern affluent west, imo, when it provides a social support, community and feeling of acceptance to those who might otherwise be fobbed off in society. JWism may not have been a good experience for me, but for two people from my old congregation, a 90 year old lady with no family and an autistic man a few years older than me, it would be a vital social support system. I can argue they could have gotten that same deal from another Church with less baggage, but I don't see how they could have gotten it from membership in a secular group.

  Secularists should rightly be proud of their support for gay rights, but they clearly still lag behind theists in many areas, and theism will not be obsolete until they find a way to catch up.
• 

  cofty

  Do you really think "secularism" has any catching up to do? I don't think I agree.

  The calls for equality, tolerance, social justice, an end to poverty and care for the planet are not being led by religion.
• 

  Laika

  Slim,

  I am not really an expert on Nietzsche and probably not the best person for this conversation... Have you read much by Martin Heidegger? I think he had some good stuff to say on nihilism, I think you would like him.
• 

  Laika

  Do you really think "secularism" has any catching up to do? I don't think I agree.

  Yes I do, there are many good secular movements but I'd argue that it still tends to be mostly (though certainly not exclusively) the religious who are the ones who 'get their hands dirty' as it were, actually helping people on an individual basis.
• 

  cofty

  So if I grant that rather than get side-tracked, is your point that theology may be a fantasy but at least it motivates people to be good?

  What about my earlier point about the psychological harm that theology does?

  Taking christianity as an example, it's message begins by demeaning humans. Until somebody accepts that they are a miserable sinner there is nothing but judgement and condemnation.

  How can a belief system that teaches children they are broken, fallen sinners, claim a place in an enlightened world, even if it does trick people into being nice?
• 

  latinthunder

  The calls for equality, tolerance, social justice, an end to poverty and care for the planet are not being led by religion.

  You are just baiting people now, which is a form of trolling. Of course religion is for equality, tolerance, social justice and an end to poverty. The problem, as Einstein said, is that we have stomachs[1]. Religion has been heralding to the world for thousands of years that we must all get along and love each other to succeed as a species. Science just confirms what theology ultimately concludes. It's divisive to assert that theology is obsolete and has nothing left to teach us which goes against both scientific and theological values.
• 

  latinthunder

  Taking christianity as an example, it's message begins by demeaning humans. Until somebody accepts that they are a miserable sinner there is nothing but judgement and condemnation. How can a belief system that teaches children they are broken, fallen sinners, claim a place in an enlightened world, even if it does trick people into being nice?

  Original Sin is a fraudulent concept as it goes well beyond what the scriptures originally taught. You don't use pseudoscience to represent science just as you don't use pseudotheology to represent theology. What you have discovered is the misuse of theology to create a power structure. Theology doesn't hurt people, people hurt people.

  Christianity has been comendeered by evil agents and must be reclaimed.
• 

  fulltimestudent

  From Cofty's initial comments:

  The early questions put Gene Robinson under the spotlight and to be fair he comes across as a loving, compassionate, intelligent and - in his own words - "fabulous" person. By contrast the Reverend Nile is a caricature of everything that is dispicable and hateful about theism.

  My GAY XJW friend had an enlightening experience with the 'reverend' Fred Nile.

  When Nile first became involved in politics, he made many controversial anti-gay statements, one of which advocated teh compulsory internment of ALL gay men (not sure about women) in internment camps where they would be forcibly re-educated to make them str8.

  Not too long after that, my friend who was having a few marriage problems (even though his wife was a JW) and feeling isolated. He happened to meet a young man who indicated an interest in him. One thing led to another and they spent the night together. Long story, but it got back to the congregation and he was disfellowhipped.

  He spent 6 months trying to 'turn str8' again. (but once that particular genie is out of the bottle, its hard to get it back in to the bottle). In desperation he remembered Fred Nile's comments and decided to ask him to recommend someone to 're-educate' him and make him str8 again.

  He called Nile's parliamentary office and said he'd like to talk to Nile. Nile's secretary said he'd pass the message on, but my friend never got a return call. He tried a number of times and then found Niles home phone number. When he called there, Nile's wife wanted to know why he wanted to talk to Nile, so my friend explained. Mrs Nile said she'd tell Fred and he'd call back. My friend called about 4 or 5 times and was fobbed off all the time.

  My conclusion is that Nile has also been kissed by the gay fairy, and his homophobic comments are an expression of his own internalised hatred of himself.
• 

  cofty

  Of course religion is for equality, tolerance, social justice and an end to poverty.

  Is it?

  It is secular society that has taken the lead in opposing homophobia and mysogyny. Theology has had to adapt to changing social mores. Those factions of religion that refuse to adapt are increasingly marginalised and irrelevant. But why did the more enlightened religions need secular sources to enlighten them?

  I am willing to grant that theology once had a use, but is it not now blundering around looking for a purpose?

  Why is theology still being taught at respectable universtities?
• 

  cofty

  My conclusion is that Nile has also been kissed by the gay fairy, and his homophobic comments are an expression of his own internalised hatred of himself. - Fulltimestudent

  I think that is a reasonable question.

  I also wonder whether Paul was attracted to men. Was that the "angel of Satan" that was sent to beat him?