The distinction between cult and religion.....

by NoRegrets 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Catholicism has, for years, threatened its members with excommunication if itself was threatened. When Jesus gave Peter the "keys of the Kingdom of Heaven," he was giving the church (through Peter and his successors) the power to damn people to a neverending hell. If he could bind in Heaven and Earth, he could baptize and have it recognized by God. And if he could "loose" on Heaven and Earth, he could cut someone off from the Kingdom and thereby cause them to be loosed, or cut off, from the Kingdom.

    Cardinals and priests, while they did not individually hold these keys, could exercise those keys under papal authority. And, brother, if you were excommunicated, you were out! And all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't save you if you were cut off. So two mobsters are out on the street and Mobster A shoots Mobster B, and what does the latter do? "Get me a priest!" And regardless of the life Mobster B has lived; despite his murders, the beatings and other evils he committed, if he could get a priest to give him a pass, then he would forever sit on the Lord's right hand whilst millions of Jews are condemned to Hell because they didn't believe in Jesus!

    King Henry VIII believed (or so he said) that as the king, he was the Defender of the Faith and sanctified by God to represent Him. And this despite the fact that all of the kings of Israel showed deference to the prophets. David and Solomon were known to have received revelation, but what happened to Saul, David's predecessor, when, tired of waiting for Samuel to show up and offer sacrifices, took it upon himself to do so? An angry Samuel showed up and immediately stripped Saul of his kingdom.

    Now is Catholicism a cult? It certainly can, according to its teachings, strip a man of his membership in the church. The Jehovah's Witnesses have NEVER been given the keys of the Lord's Kingdom of Heaven, so when the elders decide to excommuni...er...disfellowship Brother Stumble because he was caught reading a book on Seventh Day Adventism, what power do they have to either bind or loose their judgments on Heaven or Earth? None, zero, zip, nada, nil! The only power elders or the Governing Body have is between the ears of the members.

    Cults tend to be small organizations that exercise power over its people that, to normal people, seem excessive. I'd also classify Scientology as a cult because of its control and ability to physically punish, even hold, its members.

    The term itself is cultish in that people use it however they wish. But the world is full of them.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Its funny how Cold Steel a promoter of the Mormon cult posts twice on this post.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Mormonism is no more of a cult than any other religion.

    I've noticed, cantleave, that you primarily whip in, name call and leave. It would be as if I responded to your message by calling you an insufferable dork who wouldn't know a cult if it was pulled up from behind and snapped over your head.

    But of course I would never do that.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Hmmm so you are you saying JW's are no more a cult than other religions?

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    My wife studies cults is assciated with ICSA and I myself have read a great deal about cults. Stranglely enough the authorities that label JW's as cults seem to call the Church of LDS a cult too. I wonder why that would be?

    http://worldcultwatch.org/mormon/

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    No, I'm not saying the Jehovah's Witnesses aren't a cult. But they're a long way off from being Mormons. If we're going to talk honestly about cults, we have to define them. We also have to acknowledge that ancient Christianity was a cult, so cults aren't necessarily bad. If used as a pejorative term, yes, Jehovah's Witnesses are in to carefully crafted mind control, and they do this by limiting members' friends and family relations to fellow JWs. Ritualistic shunning also is a vicious doctrine. Love is missing in the religion and is replaced by fear.

    Mormons can have free associations, read religious material from other religions, openly question biblical exegesis of apostles and other leaders (like Paul's views on women). Like early Christianity, the LDS faith is a top-down apostolic organization that believes in modern prophets, revelation, keys of authority and an open canon of scripture. We eschew creeds, though we have a set standards of basic beliefs. We excommunicate and disfellowship (not the same in our faith), but it doesn't involve shunning. It's done with the hope of recovery. We believe in Hell, but that it is not everlasting in the sense of never ending; rather, we believe it is remedial and is intended to help the wicked to understand the wickedness they've committed. Peter says that when Jesus died, he went and "preached to the spirits in prison, which at one time were disobedient in the days of Noah." Are some people unhappy about the church? Yes, but that's inevitable. We're no more or less cultish than Methodists, and anyone who's ever attended our meetings realize that.

    We adhere to the saying, "Be ye wise as serpants, but harmless as doves." We wish no one ill and view all men as brothers/sisters.

    If that's a cult, were there more cults in the world.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    religion - believe if you want and believe what you want, make your own choices, come or leave as you please, freely speak your mind

    cult - believe what we tell you to whether you want to or not, no easy way out, no freedom to think or speak your mind

  • TotallyADD
    TotallyADD

    I feel there is a little bit of cult like quality in all religions. The JW cult takes it to a extreme unlike most other religions. Totally ADD

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Ah, some voices of reason...finally!

    As for cantleave's recommended reading on Mormonism:

    Make no mistake, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is an authoritarian cult, and has been since the beginning. It is also one of the longest lived cults in America and has spread around the globe to almost every country in the world. Its membership is second only to the Roman Catholic Church, although in the last few years it has been dwindling due to many members leaving, despite the threat of excommunication and shunning by friends and family.

    Our membership is second only to the Roman Catholic faith? Were that but true, we’d be thrilled. I don’t know how you would know how our membership has been “dwindling,” as we don’t publish that sort of statistic. And, as stated, Mormons do not believe in ritualistic shunning. If there is shunning, it’s the type people do as people. It is not condoned, encouraged or taught by the church and doesn’t reflect the love people should have for friends or family.

    As for our cult status, you say we have “spread around the globe to almost every country in the world.” Yep, just like ancient Christianity did two thousand years ago...no point in denying it.

    One of the problems I have with L.D.S. is that they expound on the same outdated theories of Joseph Smith even in the face of actual science. Smith said that the American Indians were direct decedents of the lost tribe of Israel. Recent DNA evidence shows absolutely no Semitic ancestry. How can you respect a religious entity that has lies at its base?

    Completely behind the times. I saved some text books from college, but upon reading them some years later, I had to toss them in the trash because they were so behind the times. If one assumes the American Indians of the plains are the Book of Mormon people, that’s one thing; modern LDS scholars have, for several decades now, have concentrated on Mesoamerica as the Book of Mormon lands, which is the only geography in this hemisphere which matches the Book of Mormon. Check out the FAIRLDS videos on YouTube regarding the Book of Mormon geology and DNA.

    Book of Mormon Geology and DNA.

    Not only are the Book of Mormon’s insights to the New World fascinating, but it’s description of the ancient Arabian desert is one hundred percent accurate. No one in Joseph Smith’s day could have known such minor details and bore-sighted accuracy of Old World geography.

    Accuracy of Old World Geography.

    Some of its policies are disturbing from a human rights point of view. Like Scientology, apostates are not welcome. (Sometimes true if they are obnoxious or disrespectful.) In cases where a family member has left the "church," other family members still in are forced to shun them (Completely not true.) and even divorce them (Absolutely not true. “Force” is not a word you’ll find in the LDS church.). In cases where they have been inducted into the Temples, they will be deprived of the right to enter the Temple (True), even if their children are getting married, they will have to stand outside (True). As a matter of fact, if you have a child that has converted to Mormonism, and you have not, you will have to stand outside the Temple (True, but receptions are NOT held in the temple in any event). Mormons are taught that even if they have been permanently sealed to family members, if they leave the faith, they will be unsealed (Well, of course. But that remains up to the member, on whether they’re excommunicated or not, and if not, it ultimately will be settled by the great judge of all mankind. Many former members actually request to be cut off in all respects to the church.). My great-grandmother went to her death believing that she would not be allowed to see my grandfather in the afterlife because he had left the Mormon church. (She was in error. Visiting rights are actually quite liberal in the afterlife. If she attains the greater glory in the resurrection, she can visit anyone she wishes.)

    More disturbing is the practice of the 'worthiness interview.' Like the "sec checks" in Scientology, all members of the faith are called in several times a year for confessional interview by priesthood leaders like the stake president or a bishop (Not the case for me or anyone I know. You may go in for a tithing settlement at the end of the year, but that’s not mandatory; likewise, one has a worthiness interview if they obtain a temple recommend, but that’s good for two years, I think.). These are very invasive interviews that include questioning the parishioner if the still believe in God, or the current prophet, are they tithing enough, do they masturbate? (That last one has been cut out, but you’re spot on regarding the others. And what’s so invasive about being questioned about your views on God or the church leadership? It is, after all, a worthiness interview.)

    ... Mormon children grow up sexually repressed and many grow up emotionally insecure about their own sexuality.

    What?? Call for references!

    Parents are not allowed in the room while...sexual questions are asked. Mormon parents are not allowed to question the authority of their leaders, so they send their male and female children to be alone, behind closed doors with an adult male. Because of mistrust of non-Mormon authority, sexual abuse and sexual abuse of children goes mainly unreported, as they prefer to handle their "problems" internally, much like Scientology.

    This goes beyond absurdity and far into the realm of irresponsibility. Please document this as well. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has taken incredible precautions to prevent child abuse. And because such abuse it’s extraordinarily rare, you chalk it up to being underreported! Talk about non-sequiturs! If anything, we have far less child abuse than any other Christian sect I can think of.

    In determining whether any religious movement is a “cult” or not, one must first define the term. Certainly, the reasons you cite certainly don’t cast the LDS church into “Scientology” category.

    Finally, your entire write-up of the temple garment is completely spurious. Call it “magic underwear” if you wish, but the scriptures are replete with references to sacred vestments. Your assertion that “Mormons believe that the holy garment will protect them from fire, bullets, knives and other assaults” is astoundingly ignorant. It would be like saying that Christians believe the cross will protect them against vampires, evil spirits and the evil eye. For a responsible treatise on this, I recommend you read Hugh Nibley’s Sacred Vestments. You may find that our so-called “magic underwear” has a rich tradition in both Jewish and Christian traditions.

    In any event, taking a doctrine or practice, ridiculing it and walking away isn’t scholarship or even responsible reporting. It's simply name calling.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Cults connote perjorative views. Wikipedia terms Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, and several other religions that emerged during a specific time period in American history, New Religious Movements.

    I don't like using the word cult. Describing behavior seems more worthwhile. Both groups are high c ontrol and hold views contrary to what almost all Christian churches believe.

    I can't distinguish between religion and cults. Any religion is capable of becoming a cult. I find the linking of Roman Catholicism with cult behavior distasteful. To define a cult involves moral judgments.

    There is lingering anti RC sentiment in this country that is almost as strong as antisemitism.

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