CHRISTIANS: Are we meant to identify the last days?

by Zoos 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Zoos

  I've been reading articles from Ronald E. Frye's, The Christian Respondent. He puts forward this understanding of Mark 13, Mathew 24 and Luke 21:

  (1) The destruction of Jerusalem is set forth in graphic detail. The disciples are plainly told what events would accompany this and what they should do to protect themselves and avoid getting caught in that destruction.

  (2) The matter of the Lord's coming or parousia is uncertain as to time and would overtake the world and the disciples at a time they would not expect.

  Frye concludes that we were not intended to identify the last days but rather we were to simply be watchful that we not let our Godly devotion slip. Okay, that all makes sense. But my question arises in verses 15-28. Where do we draw the line between Jesus discussing the destruction of Jerusalem and his second coming? Do you think the prophesy about Jerusalem’s destruction is supposed to have a “greater fulfillment” in the last days – as put forward by the WT? I really don’t think there were false Messiah’s running around producing great signs and omens right before the destruction of Jerusalem. But, maybe there were.

  If Christ's answer to his disciples was referring to two separate events at two periods in time, then where do we draw that line in his response?

  If Christ’s answer is to be understood as having related signs and fulfillments in both time periods (and events) then His answer is very specific in a couple of areas – for example the “desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place.”

  What are your thoughts?
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  Fernando

  The Watchtower's physical/religious/carnal/temporal perspective and focus on the "last days" appears to have had two main deleterious effects:

  • apostate twisting and obscuring the true meaning of the "last days" and "Armageddon"
  • apostate truncating the "Good News" down to a single ingredient (at least 29 key ingredients discarded)

  Personally I have found that focussing on the "full Good News" or "unabridged gospel" alone, seems to permit the greatest spiritual awakening, empowerment and progress, whilst breaking addiction to a "ruling religious clergy class" and hierarchy (Pharisees aka elders, and Sanhedrin aka GB/FDS).
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  jhine

  As a Cof E member who is happy to listen to or read teaching from Catholics , Baptists etc to get a full spectrum of thought on the Bible and it's interpretaton I have always felt that if you look at Jesus' teaching including the parable of the faithful and UNFAITHFUL slave we are meant to live each day as if it is the last . We are told that Jesus came to give life eternal and TO THE FULL and I think that we should live a full life each day with Him and not worry about times and dates .

  Jan
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  Black Sheep

  Sometimes the reason it is difficult to make sense of something is simply because it doesn't make sense. Ask yourself, if your mum wore a burka would you be asking this question, or is it only important to you because of an accident of birth?

  The questions that my parents insisted needed answering needed to be analysed before attempting any answers. They never did that. They wasted decades of their lives chasing ever changing answers to questions that never needed to be asked, and provided no benefits to themselves, their family, and their converts, other than providing them with a dysfunctional social club of misfits.
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  Laika

  Peter thought the last days began at pentecost (acts 2 17) whatever we're meant to do trying to nail down a specific time period hasn't worked and we should probably give up on it.
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  Bobcat

  See my post on this page where I map out all the occurances of "last days" and similar words or phrases.

  The breakdown with their corresponding contexts are very interesting. It definitely appears that the NT writers viewed themselves and their readers as being in the "last days" leading up to the parousia and the end of the age.

  It is also worth noting that none of the contexts in the verses mentioned have any particular Jewish application, as if the writers were talking only about the end of the Jewish system (which unfolded in 66-70 CE). Oftentimes, the Society will refer to a dual "last days," a Jewish one, and one for the age (or "system of things") that only began in 1914.

  On my post on this thread I included the relevant parts of a public talk (#2) that holds to the idea that 2 Tim. 3:1-5 only has application to 20th century times. (So that you can see how the Society reasons on it.)

  Having said the above, I can think of two parables in Matthew 13 that give the idea of a 'concluding' portion to the "age" (or "system of things").

  The parable of the wheat and weeds describes a period of sowing "fine seed," then a period of wheat and weeds growing together, then a "conclusion" (or "end") of the age where the two types are seperated and disposed of.

  The parable of the dragnet also describes a seperation to happen in the "conclusion of the system of things."

  The Society holds to the idea that the "conclusion of the sysem of things" = the "last days." But as far as I can see from the context of "last days" verses, this doesn't pan out.

  It is worth noting that numerous translations translate "conclusion" (Strong's # 4930) as "end" (telos, #5056). The NWT always differentiates the two words ("conclusion" vs. "end") and draws a distinction between their meaning, but I'm not so sure there is always a distinct difference between the two.

  See also comments on your post above on my posts here, and here and here.
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  transhuman68

  LOL, all the Gospels were written after 70 C.E. so the authors were trying to make Jesus look clever by having him predict that Jerusalem would be destroyed, when of course it had been at the time of writing. Probably the Christians in the 1st century would have felt they were in the 'last days' without having to think about it- everything predicted was probably happening somewhere, as it still is now in the 21st century. But they were looking ahead- as Luke 21:24 shows- to the end of the 'Gentile Times. '
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  gingerbread

  For the past 10 centuries, there is historic evidence of persons in the Western world who identified the time period they were living in as 'the last days' based on the writings of 1st century christians. It requires a 'parallel fulfillment' of prophecy.

  This method of explaination of scripture produces a fundamentalist/literalist form of christianity.

  ginger
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  Cold Steel

  Jesus used prophecy to show the people that God knew all things from the beginning and to show them the signs of his [second] coming, which all the prophets looked forward to.

  The JWs, never content to let a good thing go to waste, decided to poison pen the entire thing by concentrating on the last great battle of the Age. And they ripped it out of the Bible and turned it from a local mideastern battle between Israel and its neighbors to a great battle like Ragnarök, a turbid worldwide affair enrapt with smoke and flame. Like a whirlwind it shall come upon the face on the the entire earth, and when the dust settles, the Jehovah's Witnesses will find themselvess delivered from a wicked generation, whilst the non-members will be dead from flaming sulphur and fire.

  It's pretty silly.
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  Zoos

  I should have clarified that I was not trying to figure out bible prophesy. I've become content to leave prophesy to history - sort it out later. I was just wondering if Jesus was telling us we HAD to look for sign x,y,z in order to "stay awake," and if so, what part of it is about Jerusalem and what part of it was about the last days or was it all a mishmash.

  Thanks for all the responses. Bobcat, you gave me plenty of reading material to sift through. Thank you.