How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?
by tootired2care 327 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
tec
One person who hears something does not at all mean it's known. The point is that it was NOT an edict or standard to live by that people were generally aware of. His way of doing it falls below even the most rudimentary human standards of lawmaking.
Do you understand that the two of you are talking as though people could not have known that murdering another person was wrong... without a law telling them? We're not talking about aliens who might have some civilization where murder is acceptable. And Cain DID know it was wrong, else he would not have lied about it happening in the first place.
But just like those who cannot follow the written law; there are those who cannot follow the law that is unwritten... the law of love; THAT is what God taught, because that is what Christ taught, and Christ only taught what God taught Him.
But people act upon what is IN them. Regardless of the law. THAT is what God warned Cain to get the mastery of, before it got the mastery of him.
Cain did not heed God. Cain murdered his brother.
There are many people who would never consider murdering another person. Simply is not in them. But it is in some people, and the example of Cain shows that God DOES warn such people. They, however, do not hear or heed Him. So He says to THEIR brother, go and warn your brother because He will not hear me. If that brother goes as he has been TOLD to do, then his conscience is clean. If that brother refuses to go and do as God has told him, then he bears some accountability for that. Just as if your own mother told you to go warn your brother against something dangerous that he was approached, because he wasn't listening to her and most of the time he just tuned her out (maybe he's a teenager); but he might listen to YOU, being his brother and all... but you DON'T go warn your brother (you don't feel like it; you don't want him to think you're not 'cool'; you think he should have listened to your mother so tough luck, serves him right if he gets hurt, etc); and then he dies.
And yet extermination is exactly what is stated in his book of bible riddles in several places. earlier you argued the need for community responsiblity to warn others, now you say there is no extermination...then why the need for warning and community responsiblity of warning at all!? I think your argument just had a complete logic meltdown.
I would ask you to go back and re-read what I wrote at the start... because I don't understand how you are connecting these things.
There will be those who are not permitted into the kingdom. But they are not exterminated or even killed. They are OUTSIDE the kingdom, and after the thousand years, these ones come against those IN the kingdom (deceived by the deceiver; but he works on what is already IN a person). They come TO destroy. They come TO kill. They come TO steal. But they CANNOT enter the kingdom. There is one way, and one way only, and that is through Christ. They allow themselves to be convinced that they can get through by some other means (their own). But fire from heaven devours them. Do you recall the flaming sword placed between Adam and Eve, and the Tree of life? They cannot pass through; literally cannot pass through; and fire devours them.
But yes, there is the resurrection of the dead... these ones are resurrected to life; or to judgment (death); all according to the deeds as recorded in their own books.
Do you think you might also be misunderstanding based on what the wts tells you you must do (part of Caliber's point); becasue it is the wts that tells you that you have to be out there knocking on doors, so many service hours per week, or you're going to die at (their version of) armageddon?
Furthermore, If what is clearly stated in the bible is not true as you suggested, shouldn't an almighty be able to and have an interest in setting his record straight?
It is not that it isn't true; it is that people do not look to the one who DID set the record straight. Instead, they look to men and religion who don't know anymore now than they ever have. The ones who help warp the record to begin with.
Christ DID and DOES set the record straight. That is why HE is called the Teacher and the Truth.
Peace,
tammy
-
tec
double post, sorry
-
adamah
TEC, for the 3rd TIME:
Apostle Paul provided the answer to Cain's lax punishment (and to explain God's tolerance of evil acts for all humans who lived before the Flood, after which the Noachian Decree prohibiting bloodshed was stated clearly in Genesis 9:5), in Romans 5:13-
13 (For until the law sin WAS in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law).
Paul was saying that although acts which LATER were considered to be sins WERE committed, God actually had to declare them as a sin (eg by saying, "Thou humans shalt not do X"), and to demonstrate his mercy and grace, these acts were not imputed against individuals. God doesn't hold sinners accountable for retroactive sin.
You DO know what 'imputed' means, right? Some translations render it as "charged" or "held accountable". Paul was saying that while the action that constitutes a sin was commited by humans, it was not considered by God as a transgressable (chargeable) sin until AFTER He officially declared the act as a TRANSGRESSION, a chargable sin. Humans were given a "free pass", as it were.
Paul even referred to the same idea in Romans 4:13-15, when referring to God's promise to Abraham to bless his offspring, almost as a parenthetical comment:
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
In context, Paul was explaining WHY God's promise to Abraham to bless his offspring wasn't made in writing (or other tangible form): that would've invalidated the opportunity for Abraham to demonstrate his FAITH in the later test of FAITH where God asked him to offer Isaac as sacrifice. Again, this comes back to the definition of FAITH Paul gave in Hebrews 11, saying that a promise made in writing (eg tangible form) does NOT require faith (and if you don't understand THAT principle about faith, then you're hopelessly lost by now). That's why the stone tablets on Mt Sinai were given to Moses WRITTEN by the hand of God: they were VISIBLE PROOF that God had given him the 10 commandments, and required obedience and compliance, NOT based on faith.
It also explains why Abel is listed in the "heros of faith" in Hebrews 11, since his and Cain's sacrifices were offered NOT by following God's later explicit rules for sacrifices (as found in the Torah, explaining WHAT sacrifice was needed to atone for WHAT exact sin), but Cain and Abel's sacrifices were offered on FAITH: he and Cain were flying blind, as it were, relying on God's reaction to their sacrifices in order to figure out if they pleased God or not. Abel's sacrifice received God's favor, and Cain's offering didn't.
God said to Cain in Genesis 4:7-
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."
"if you do right, will you not be accepted" is a reference to Cain's 'yetzer tov', a person's inclination for good. Instead, Cain let his 'yetzer hara' (inclination for evil acts) overcome him such that he murdered Abel (Cain wasn't able to control his emotions), despite God warning him that he needs to master his inclination for evil (hot temper).
But "sin is crouching at your door" doesn't mean God considered it a transgressible sin; in fact, the Hebrew phrase used here suggests God was giving Cain a BIG HINT that his fratricide wasn't approved by God, but God's lax punishment confirms what Paul says about there being a difference between committing a transgressible sin and commiting an act which only LATER was officially declared as a chargable sin (and hence demanded punishment via principle of lex talionis, "a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" as found in Levitical law, as I posted earlier).
Fact remains: Cain was given lax punishment (which was designed to demonstrate God's foregiveness), and Lamech observed the lax punishment and even bragged to his two wives (bigamy, BTW) how God would give Lamech even GREATER (11x) protection by God since he had killed TWO men.
God was giving perverse motivation to murder others, with more protection offered for killing MORE humans which only snowballed into the World descending into anarchy before the Flood. The anarchy which developed led to rampant lawlessness (since God hadn't GIVEN any laws, yet!) such that God was grieved at making mankind and wanted a do-over, but THIS time, blessing mankind with a "no bloodshed" rule at the start.
BTW, that's what happens when you rob a long-standing pre-existing myth from the Sumerians, which contained a similar justification for establishing rule over others: inevitably continuty errors are introduced. The earlier myths didn't make their Gods appear to be boobs.
Adam
-
tootired2care
tt2c Said:
And yet extermination is exactly what is stated in his book of bible riddles in several places. earlier you argued the need for community responsiblity to warn others, now you say there is no extermination...then why the need for warning and community responsiblity of warning at all!? I think your argument just had a complete logic meltdown.
Tec Said
I would ask you to go back and re-read what I wrote at the start... because I don't understand how you are connecting these things.
There will be those who are not permitted into the kingdom. But they are not exterminated or even killed. They are OUTSIDE the kingdom, and after the thousand years, these ones come against those IN the kingdom (deceived by the deceiver; but he works on what is already IN a person). They come TO destroy. They come TO kill. They come TO steal. But they CANNOT enter the kingdom. There is one way, and one way only, and that is through Christ. They allow themselves to be convinced that they can get through by some other means (their own). But fire from heaven devours them. Do you recall the flaming sword placed between Adam and Eve, and the Tree of life? They cannot pass through;literally cannot pass through; and fire devours them.
But yes, there is the resurrection of the dead... these ones are resurrected to life; or to judgment (death); all according to the deeds as recorded in their own books.
Do you think you might also be misunderstanding based on what the wts tells you you must do (part of Caliber's point); becasue it is the wts that tells you that you have to be out there knocking on doors, so many service hours per week, or you're going to die at (their version of) armageddon?
How does this even relate to what I stated? The bible says it TEC, and earlier you talked about the need to warn others via a community responsiblity. You can deny it all you want but it's there. Again please answer the question what are we to warn people about exacly?
And this has nothing to do with the WT, this is just the bible were talking about here.
-
Captain Obvious
If murder was clearly a sin, why did god have to put it in the Ten Commandments? Couldn't they as a society just decide that murder was wrong? In Cain's case, could he really have known the effects of what he did if he was the first murderer?
A good portion of Genesis is god gettin mad at humans for doing things they didn't know were wrong. Consider the pre-flood world (as if it actually existed..) god gave humankind zero instructions that we know of, zero guidance. Then, once they weren't up to his standards... Rather than teach or discipline them and make himself known, he just condemned them all. Even the animals. What did the animals do?
If your children acted out and were bad because you completely ignored them their whole lives, would you be justified in killing them all? Regardless of how wicked they might become... Not only is it your own fault, but it is quite another thing to consider wiping them all out along with their pets.
Jus' sayin.
-
tootired2care
Do you understand that the two of you are talking as though people could not have known that murdering another person was wrong... without a law telling them?
TEC the point is not that someone should have known it was wrong the point is that the god of the bible is a hypocrite who can't accept responsiblity for his failures.
It is not that it isn't true; it is that people do not look to the one who DID set the record straight. Instead, they look to men and religion who don't know anymore now than they ever have. The ones who help warp the record to begin with.
Christ DID and DOES set the record straight. That is why HE is called the Teacher and the Truth.
Now you seem to be talking in circles. You just stated earlier there is no extermination, when the bible clearly states otherwise. Also if Christ has set the record straight than how come the millions that profess belief in him can hardly agree on the meaning of many of his riddles?
-
tec
I don't have a problem with different punishments/consequences, Adamah. Never did. AS is also written:
"If anyone then, knows the good they ought to do but does not do it, it is sin for them."
"The servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows; But the one who does not know, and does things deserving of punishment, will be beaten with few blows."
"If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your sin remains."
But what I challenged you for saying was this:
wiping billions of inhabitants of the Earth for HIS crime of omission of forgetting to declare bloodshed as a sin BEFORE the Flood, only doing so AFTER the Flood
You won't answer it. I get that. You will continue to deflect as you have any other direct question that I ask you that might actually show you the truth of the matter. But that is your choice. Peace, tammy
-
adamah
TEC said-
Do you understand that the two of you are talking as though people could not have known that murdering another person was wrong... without a law telling them?
Heh, apparently God is not so sure on that point, either, since the Tanakh contains accounts of God ordering people to kill others (or did you forget about Joshua's genocidal campaigns against Caananites, or ordering Abraham to kill his son, etc)? Nevermind the perverse incentive given to Cain; God talks out of both sides of His mouth, when it suits His purposes (well, at least those who wrote his story).
That's a logic fail, TEC.
Adam
-
adamah
On this:
I don't have a problem with different punishments/consequences, Adamah. Never did.
Heh, what happened to God's "PERFECT" moral laws, and unchanging nature? Wouldn't these examples make those other scriptures ("God is not a man, such that he changes his mind", those lauding his "perfect justice and righteousness" etc) wrong?
AS is also written:
"If anyone then, knows the good they ought to do but does not do it, it is sin for them."
"The servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows; But the one who does not know, and does things deserving of punishment, will be beaten with few blows."
"If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your sin remains."
LOL! And how does pointing out the contradictory scriptures from the NT (3,000 yrs later) support your argument, exactly? The first scripture you cited was written long AFTER the Law of Moses was written, as were all the others, so that's a LOGIC FAIL.
As I said earlier, you seem willing to time-travel the Bible characters to use whatever laws may have developed 3,000 LATER: that's WHY I asked you to clarify ahead of time if you agree with Bible chronology in some sort of crude manner that resembles reality, and that would mean you wouldn't try to attempt that kind of nonsense.
At this point, shouldn't you go with either your trademark "lying scribes" defense, or even the "Jesus told me" appeal to Divine Authority schtick?
Adam
EDIT: On this-
But what I challenged you for saying was this:
wiping billions of inhabitants of the Earth for HIS crime of omission of forgetting to declare bloodshed as a sin BEFORE the Flood, only doing so AFTER the Flood
You won't answer it. I get that. You will continue to deflect as you have any other direct question that I ask you that might actually show you the truth of the matter. But that is your choice. That's nonsense: if you cannot see that the Divine Decree given prohibiting Bloodshed in the Noachian Covenant in Genesis 9:5-6, just AFTER the Flood, given for the first time in human history as recorded in the Torah, then you are beyond help (or you need to build your faith, which isn't done by looking at evidence from ANYTHING critically, even reading the Bible): Genesis 9
God’s Covenant With Noah
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth, and on all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.
7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”
Adam