Thoughts on Jesus' Resurrection

by Perry 76 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    "A large crowd of more than 500 eyewitnesses saw the risen Jesus Christ at the same time. The Apostle Paul records this event in 1 Corinthians 15:6 . He states that most of these men and women were still alive when he wrote this letter, about 55 A.D."....Isn't that odd? If the resurrection of Jesus was so well known and such a cornerstone of Christian faith, why would "some" say there is no resurrection? Paul is addressing, not oppossers but, believer in Corinth. There is no question, Paul punches hard on the point in this chapter, but it now strikes me as he doth protest too much.

    The fact that some of the Gentiles in Corinth did not subscribe to the (general) resurrection of the body does not reflect upon the actual testimony of the apostles or the 500 who attested to having witnessed Christ's post-resurrection appearances in and around Jerusalem.

    1Co 15:12 - Now if Christ be preached that he arose from the dead, (by the apostles and numerous eyewitnesses). How say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

    There are always those like the GB and the CCOJW that develop anti- Apostolic doctrine. But, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, their error reflects only on themselves.

  • designs
    designs

    Maybe the problem facing Paul is the same problem that faces all followers of Jesus- he never came back. The Wt. Leaders are quilty of the same thing all Jesus' followers have been guilty of, believing he is alive and going to do something.

    One group of Christians think another group of Christians is all wrong because they don't believe the same. A flash of light is ok but a burnt Tortilla with the face of Jesus oh now that's from the demons.

  • prologos
    prologos

    argument five: possible natural explanations:

    The Roman spear did not penetrate deep, but was stopped short when blood & water came out of the skin.

    These accumulated fluids were the result of the earlier assault on the Carpenter's body.

    He was alive but comatose when pried off the nails. walked away finally.

    all onlookers must have been "on something", to see the resurrected dead climb out of the coffins and walk around Jerusalem after the earthquake, darkness, rent courtain.

    A "resurrection" tale worthy of the beginning of THE BOOK, the talking snake, spare-rib cloned lady.

    paper is patient.

  • cofty
    cofty

    So-called eyewitness testimony, recorded decades after an event is worthless.

    A single account that claims hundreds of people saw something is not hundreds of testimonies. It is one testimony by an unknown author who passing on something he heard decades later from somebody who heard something from somebody who....

    The earliest mention of a resurrection is by Paul and everything he says better fits a "spiritual" rather than physical event. It is more likely he suffered an epileptic incident that he interpreted as a sign from heaven.

    The accounts in the synoptic gospels are full of contradictions. The earliest gospel Mark doesn't even have a resurrection account, other than the women who told nothing to anybody because they were afraid.

    There is no evidence the apostles died for their faith but even if they did, so what? Lots of people die for religious fantasies.

    Perhaps one of his disciples had a vivid dream in which Jesus appeared to him. Its a common enough occurence when people are grieving. They tell the others that they saw Jesus and before you know it they are all making similar claims. If you have ever been part of an evangelical or charismatic event you know how easily these things happen.

    As the stories get retold they evolve. This is precisely what we see in the NT.

    Consider the claims of the hundreds of thousands of followers of Guru Sri Sathya Sai Baba... The miracles that he has allegedly performed in front of hundreds of eyewitnesses makes Jesus look like a cheap street magician.

    Have a read at this one example and think about the many eyewitnesses most of whom must still be alive to this day. Why don't you track them down and try to disprove the story? Is it becasue you couldn't care less? It's so silly it's not worth the effort? For the same reason the claims of the disciples went unchallenged in 1st Century Jerusalem.

    If you as a christian can understand why you are unimpressed by the astonishing claims of Sai Baba's followers, then you can also understand how I feel about your claims.


    A group of six devotees had come to have darshan of Baba from Australia . Baba called them for a private interview.

    During the normal course of the talk, Baba looked at one of the devotees and asked -- “Why did you come now. Your mother is not well. She needs you there back in Australia” .

    He replied saying-- “ Yes Baba, I called home yesterday night and this news was conveyed to me. I pray for her early recovery.”

    Baba replied --

    Go home soon. She is asking for you. In fact go home now.”

    So saying, Baba created a map of the world with the wave of the hand. He spread it on the wall and the following conversation took place : --

    BABA : “Where is Australia in this map ?”

    Devotee : “Here, Baba .” (Pointing to the map).

    Baba touched it and the world map changed into an Australian map.

    BABA : “Where in Australia do you say ?”

    Devotee : “New South Wales, Baba .” (pointing to the map).

    Baba touched it and the Australian map changed into the map of New South Wales.

    BABA : “Where in New South Wales do you say ?”

    When the devotee mentioned the place, Baba touched it and the chart changed to show all the apartments in the area.

    Then Baba touched the house in which the man was staying and lo! the wall of the interview room became the door of the devotee’s home. Baba opened the door and showed the man his mother sleeping on the sofa. Baba called the man and asked him to go in and closed the door. He rubbed his hands on the door and the door became the wall of the interview room again!

    Later when the Australians came out of the interview room, only five came out instead of the six who went in. The students of Prashanthi Nilayam campus saw this. Later they called back the man who was sent to Australia only an hour later, who confirmed his ‘safe arrival’.

    Baba said that ---

    “Time and space exist only in the worldly plane. In the divine plane there is no time and space. I can easily cross time and space as and when I want to. That experience of the Australian crossing space to reach Australia from the interview room was my leela to show you that it is possible for me to do that if necessary. Time and space hold no barrier for GOD.”

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    Yay, Techno Christ has arrived....

  • Perry
    Perry
    Perry: What's your thought on Joseph Smith, do you believe he found the Golden Plates after being directed to their location by an Angel??

    My thoughts are just exactly the same for Joseph Smith as they are for the WT who also peddles New Light. The bibles plainly says that the Gospel message is fixed in time and cannot be changed without being cursed.

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that

    which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal. 1: 8

    In light of this scripture; How Joseph Smith or Rutherford who jettisoned the New Covenant for the "great crowd" , could change the basic message that was preached by the apostles, still just boggles my mind.

  • designs
    designs

    How Jesus the Apostles and Paul could lie to the public boggles our minds but we experienced first hand how those things happen.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    It's a serious indictment on human civilization that there are still people who believe in magical zombies.

  • rawe
    rawe

    Hi Vanderhoven7,

    "The fact that some of the Gentiles in Corinth did not subscribe to the (general) resurrection of the body does not reflect upon the actual testimony of the apostles or the 500 who attested to having witnessed Christ's post-resurrection appearances in and around Jerusalem. . . . But, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, their error reflects only on themselves."

    Unfortunately Paul does not elaborate in 1 Cor 15 who the "some" were. Perhaps, they were Christian leaders in Corinth who preached an anti-resurrection message. Certainly we know Paul talked about "super-fine apostles" he disagreed with elsewhere. To be exact, we can't say we have the testimony of " more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters " (verse 2). Instead what we must say is the author of Corinthians, who we generally agree was Paul, was making this claim.

    Eyewitness testimony itself can be problematic. The shocking and sudden demise of Jesus could have had a profound impact on the community of believers. A small assembly of 500 listening to someone speak of Jesus message could over time easily has transformed into a story of him really being there. Certainly we know religious folks with sufficient motivation give questionable testimony -- otherwise we would be compelled to conclude people near Joseph Smith really saw and handled the gold plates.

    Nonetheless, I do give some weight to this aspect of Paul's argument. But from there he goes downhill rather quickly...

    " If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. " (1 Cor 15:13, 14)

    Here Paul is basically arguing that resurrection of Christ happened, because such is required for their preaching and faith. Such circular reasoning weakens his argument. Finally Paul concludes with these words...

    Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” [ e ] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame. (1 Cor 15:33, 34)

    This is not the sign of good argument! To suggest belief depends, not on evidence, but rather avoding "bad company" and tied up in "sin" and "shame" is not impressive.

    These are my views of course, and you likely would put weight on different aspects of the account. That's the personal challenge to parse through this material and various viewpoints in an effort to reach a reasonable conclusion.

    Cheers,

    -Randy

  • startingover
    startingover

    Why do you start threads like this Perry? Preaching? But when you ignore posts like Cofty's why should anyone listen to you.

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