Is Anyone a Pantheist ?

by LucidSky 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • dungbeetle

    hubby isn't here right now. But he's told me that he beleives there is/was a creator, and that like all good fathers, wants us to work out our own problems, and leaves us alone to do that except for the occasional interference all parents engage in (he has seen things that make him think SOMETHING or SOMEONE is out there).

    He's also said that he thinks there is some kind of 'force' that ties living things together; do one thing bad over here, something happens over there--they seem unrelated untill you look closely.

    Those are all the answers to life's problems that he has, andmost of the time I can't do any better than that myself!!!

  • SixofNine

    Justin, thank you for quoting that oh-so anthropomorphic scripture, ""they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being." (Acts 17:27-28)"

    When people assign God a gender (especially male, how tired is that?), they are being anthropomorphic.

    Yep, that's right, they're just making it all up!

  • LucidSky

    Justin - Thanks for your comments/clarifications. When I was a Christian I eventually decided the writers were once inspired of God, but not their writings. Now my faith in Christianity has been shaken so much by what I've seen that I cannot accept a morally perfect God exists.

    Siddhashunyata - I have some similar thoughts. But I might disagree with your statement: "Ideas, ideas, ideas ...what happens when we stop forming ideas? The truth comes forward directly." There are various scientific philosophies from inductivism to falsificationism to postempiricism. To me it seems that "truth discovery" cannot be entirely empirical, since we cannot explore/observe all things. We need creativity along with observations (whether our observations are real and accurate is another issue) to formulate new frameworks and theories. New observations will then either confirm or deny our ideas. -- Any ideas or observations on this?

    drahcir yarrum - Perhaps God or a higher power is a crutch. But I am at a loss to explain this cosmic accident we call "life".

    dungbeetle - It sounds like your hubs might believe in a kind of karma?

    Great comments so far. Thanks everyone.

  • Xena

    Interesting concepts. I tend to believe there is some type of "higher" power or powers for several reasons:

    1. I can't conceive of the existance we know just evolving on it's own.

    2. No one can disprove the existance of a Godlike or type of being.

    My biggest issue with atheism has always been that you cannot completely disprove the existance of God anymore than you can prove it.

  • Siddhashunyata

    Lucid... an observation: There is no necessity to formulate anything. The process of "ideation" is the problem. It has given rise to the illusion that we know things. These ideas become symbols in our minds and we use them to "know" other things. This way of living has a certain unsatisfying quality and so, if we are aware of this unsatisfying feeling, we "seek". But using ideas to "find" is using the problem to solve the problem. It goes on and on and we are slaves to thought itself. Unless we recognize that "thinking" is a tool and a process of the brain we identify ourselves with the thoughts. We are not our thoughts and that becomes clear when thinking ceases. When the process of thinking stops, life has a different quality, objects have inherent meaning as though they in themselves are "language". This is very satisfying . It is truth. One gets the sense of having found something that was lost. It is not too much of a stretch to conclude that the dominance of the thought process is what is meant by the "tree of knowledge". The WTBS never pointed out the accessibility of life with this alternative quality because they are lost in thought while using it as a tool for power.

  • LucidSky

    Xena - I'm with ya there. I just find it unfair that at one time I had all the answers to everything I ever needed.

    Siddhashunyata - I see some of what you are saying and I can see how such a philosophy can lead do disillusionment. I think ideas coupled with observations can lead to break throughs in human understanding. The Theory of Relativity for example. Most scientists rejected the idea at first, but because observations continued to support it, it was finally accepted.

  • gravedancer


    1) God might exist. We can't disprove he doesn't exist. But is the universe even possible if he doesn't?
    You cannot prove that fairies don't exists either. You cannot prove that invisible people aren't watching you right now either... When absurdities (yes Iknow it seems strange to call the notion of God absurd - but thats just because we have spoken of him for so long and grown accustomed to it.)

    (2) God is omnipotent. The universe astounds, staggers and confuses me. It is beyond awesome in size, power, complexity, etc. Even our own existence is beyond my understanding.
    Again just because something is so big or so out of scope from our thinking ....avoid assigning "supernatural" labels to it. Perhaps try reading some of the work of Dawkins ("The Blind Watchmaker" for instance).

    (3) God may or may not be omniscient. Perhaps we are just God's science experiment or play toy or his imagination?
    If God DOES exist he is pretty damn lousy huh?

    (4) God is not perfectly loving. Why doesn't he love us enough to save us and everything else?
    If God DOES exist he is pretty damn lousy huh?

    (5) God is not perfectly just. Why has life been full of evil and hurt for millions of years?
    If God DOES exist he is pretty damn lousy huh?

    Lucid, keep thinking it is alot. I have chatted with you a few times and you are definitiely intelligent and bright. Don't accept anything that you cannot prove...if it isn't provable then ignore it or disprove it but don't waste any time with it and certainly don't allow its so called "morals" to rule your life and time. We are "moral" for one reason only - self preservation. Broaden your scope and don't accept the lines that others draw. For example "Nature". Nature is INCLUSIVE of MAN and what he brings to the world (even if it is destructive) - it is all part of and explained by Darwinisim and accelerated evolution.

    Reject the thought of religion and faith...Faith is an excuse for acceptance and is the greatest copout and excuse in history. Whole groups of people commit terrible acts because of it, they are rewarded by not having to pay taxes because of it. One day it will be seen for what it is and those tables will turn - probably not in my lifetime but who knows?

  • Siddhashunyata

    Lucid, thankyou for your response. I am not rejecting the reasoning process or thinking. I am ,clumsily, trying to point out the relationship between thought and perception. If you will, I,m trying to introduce another factor into the reasoning process.... the factor of direct "knowing". For example, the Theory of Relativity was "felt" by Einstein. The rationale came later and the observations are still coming in. The practical side of direct knowing, is the unusually satisfying quality that it gives to life. What is this? Why is this perception missing? Direct knowing is a scientific fact, why is it not part of the equasion. The fact that it is left out of the picture has led to total reliance on thought and thought cannot resolve the problem of how to live here. We are suffering from a distortion of perception. When the mind sees directly there is no problem. What is the difference between you and a Moslem? The difference is in your thinking mind. Stop that process and you are one.

  • LucidSky

    Siddhashunyata - What you say sounds intuitive.

    gravedancer - Good comments. I would like to add some thoughts to what you said.

    You cannot prove that fairies don't exists either.
    Hey, what about the dimes I got from the teeth under my pillow? But seriously, the universe might be potential evidence, whereas I have no reason at all to believe in fairies. Whether the universe is valid evidence is still inconclusive. I'm stuck.

    Again just because something is so big or so out of scope from our thinking ....avoid assigning "supernatural" labels to it. Perhaps try reading some of the work of Dawkins ("The Blind Watchmaker" for instance).
    It seems the more I learn of the universe and life, the more in awe I become that it works. I have read Watchmaker and accept evolution as a force in general, but I also have a few issues.

    Don't accept anything that you cannot prove.
    You're right. But it's hard to see that at times. When being a JW, you think you have absolute proof and then little by little, pieces of that pseudo-truth start to fall apart until the whole thing collapses.

    We are "moral" for one reason only - self preservation.
    Perhaps "species preservation" as well? That would help describe certain altruistic animal behaviors. The only "moral" it seems I am left believing right now is not harming others (excepting those who wish harm on you). Of course, this can be seen as self-preservation too.

    I have left my religion, but still want to seek answers.

  • Bona Dea
    Bona Dea

    I have read into Pantheism before. As a matter of fact, it was that exact same site from which I had gotten most of my info. I find myself in a place not very unlike where you are now, although I have not progressed to the point of actually calling myself agnostic. I suppose I'm just not ready to let go. I think that fear is why many people, even when shown evidence and logical reasonings as to why the bible must at least have "errors" and that God (as described in the bible) is not perfect nor just, they just can't accept it. Fear of death (real death without any return), Fear of eternal torment or of being annihilated, Fear of missing out on the paradise or heaven, Fear of accepting that this is it....

    I used to think that Atheists were atheist simply so that they didn't have to accept any punishment for having lack of morals (I'm not saying that Atheists are immoral...I'm saying if they wanted to be then there was no "eternal" punishment for it). They could do pretty much anything they wanted and there was no reward nor any punishment for it in the afterlife. That by giving up belief in God had made their lives easier. But I have learned that being (or at least becoming) an Atheist and losing faith in something that you have known your whole life is not easy or fun at all. Accepting the fact that no, there is no heaven afterwards, no "paradise earth" great reward. This is it. And then you rot. I mean, who really wants to believe that? I feel like this is why many cling to God.

    In reality, it seems as if mankind invented the devil so that they wouldn't have to accept responsibility for their own bad deeds and they invented God so they wouldn't have the responsibility of fixing things or trying to make things right either. "Just wait til God comes and he'll make everything right again"...."Things are they way they are because Satan is in control of this system things"

    And to add insult to injury, the JWs throw in this belief that man can never "make things right" no matter what we do. In fact, that is what this whole thing called life is about...God's letting man see for himself that he can do nothing right without God's help. What kind of "father" would do that? Here ya go son, ride this bike but know that I am (pardon the pun) the training wheels and without them you will fall. Seems kind of twisted, doesn't it?

    Just my 2 cents. Great thread.

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