When did the Last Days start in the first century

by wizzstick 52 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Phizzy

    "Luke's" qualifications as a Historian are doubtful too, he couldn't get the facts or the year of a Census right.

  • Bobcat

    The question by Wizzstick (the OP) was in relation to what happened to the Jews in the 1st century and if there was a corresponding "last days" that began in our time. It was based on that question that I gave my response on the 1st page of this thread.

    But I wanted to map out the occurrences of "last days" in the NT and how the writer was using the term.

    Concerning the term "last day" (note singular) used only in the gospel of John. It occurs in:

    John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 (by Jesus)

    John 7:37 (by John as narrator in reference to a festival)

    John 11:24 (by Martha to Jesus)

    John 12:48 (by Jesus)

    Besides 7:37, all these verses, except for 12:48, link "the last day" with a then future time of the resurrection.

    12:48 links "last day" with a then future time of judgment.

    Concerning Martha's use of the term in 11:24, the BECNT-John commentary says:

    "Martha's affirmation of end-time resurrection was in keeping with Jesus' own teaching (cf. 5:21; 25-29, 6:39-44, 54), which in turn cohered with Pharisaic beliefs (cf. Acts 23:8; Josephus, Ant. 18.1.3 ~14; JW 2.8.14 ~163; see Barrett 1978:395) and those of the majority of first-century Jews (Bauckham 1998b)."

    Incidentally, the topic was commented on here in this thread.

    Note also a similar use of plural/singular in Luke 17:26-30

    The "days of Noah" compared with "the days of the Son of man." (vs. 26) And then contrasted with "on that day" in verse 30. Those "days" precede and lead up to "that day."

    Concerning the term "last days." It occurs in:

    Acts 2:17 Used by Peter quoting (loosely) from Joel 2:28-32.

    The context indicates Peter believes that "the last days" had arrived.

    2 Tim 3:1 Used by Paul.

    The Society argues that these could only refer to some then future time. (See my 1st post here.)

    But note in the context: Paul tells Timothy (in verse 5) to "turn away" from the ones described in verses 2-5. Verses 6-9 also tie in with the ones described in verses 2-5 and Paul describes these as already on the scene.

    This argues that Paul saw himself and Timothy in the midst of the "last days" he referred to.

    James 5:3 By James against rich Christians mistreating workers.

    See here for various renderings of the last phrase.

    The phrase could mean they 'are storing [now] in the last days.' The verb for storing is aorist. Or it could mean they are storing up for a future judgment. It is hard to tell from this verse alone how James would answer the question, 'Am I in the last days?'

    2 Pet 3:3 By Peter referring to ones ridiculing the idea of Jesus' parousia.

    In verses 1 and 2 Peter seems to be preparing his readers for the ridiculers, as if they were a danger to them. Indicating that Peter believed they were already in the "last days." In verse 5 Peter speaks of the ridiculers as having missed an important point. Again, indicating that they already were in existence.

    Note Peter's reminder in verse 8 that the end of "the last days," during which they would receive the fulfillment of God's promises could still be some time off. (Also note the contrast between verse 5 and verse 8 - 'They failed to notice that, but don't you fail to notice this.')

    Phrases having a similar idea to "last days" occur here:

    1 Cor 10:11 Paul identifies his readers ("us") as those 'upon whom the end of the age has arrived.'

    1 Tim 4:1 Paul speaks of false teachers in 'the latter part of the days.' See various renderings here.

    Compare with false teachers in 2 Tim 3:6-9. Paul saw this as a then present danger.

    Heb 1:1, 2 "The end of these days" linked to the arrival of Jesus when he taught on earth.

    Heb 9:26 "At the conclusion of the age." See various renderings here.

    Referring to Jesus' arrival to sacrifice himself.

    1 Pet 1:20 "At the end of the times."

    Referring to Jesus' life on earth which was the basis for faith in him.

    1 John 2:18 "The last hour."

    John speaks of it as already arrived due to arrival of false teachers from among Christians.

    It should be noted that John uses "hour" idiomatically. In english it might be comparable to say "the last time." See various renderings here.

    I thought I would conclude with a quote from the BECNT-Acts commentary (Darrell L. Bock, p. 112) concerning Peter's quotation of Joel, and his use of the term "last days":

    The apostles read such texts as last-day, kingdom texts and saw themselves in the last days. Since the day of the Lord is also alluded to in this citation, what Peter is really saying here is that the coming of the Spirit is the beginning of "those days." An era of righteousness will conclude them, and that era comes with the day of the Lord.

  • mP


    Hello! (abbas - What proof do you have that Peter said anything?) Acts (a sequel to Luke) is a narrative written by Luke, an educated Greek and a major historian in his own right. In the preface to his Gospel, he tells us that having gone carefully over the whole story he decided to write an ordered account of it. If he is tested on detail, as archaeology for one has demonstated he CAN be tested, he emerges as a man of meticulous accuracy. He writes for Theophilus, a sophisticated, educated Roman who is in the know already about Christianity. From the way Luke changes from 'they 'to 'we' in Acts 16:10 it is evident that he witnessed many of the events he describes in such detail.



    So explain why the contradictions between Lk and Mt on the subject of jesus geneology and early years. They both cant be right.

    If Theophilus knows so much about christianity then why does he need Luke to tell him the entire story from the start ? That doesnt make any sense.

    So why cant luke and John agree on which day jesus died if they are both eye witnesses ?

    If Matthew is an apostle why is he copying Mark in his gospel ?

  • mP


    Comatose: Matt 27:6 " ....the money was payment for murder. (Greek: since it is the price for blood Ftn.) After some discussion they finally decided to buy the Potters Field. 8. That is why the field is still called the Field of Blood". (see also Zech 12:12,13).


    You know very well one says that Judas guts exploded and the other says he hanged himself. They cant both be true.


    Death [ edit ]

    Judas Iscariot from Tarzhishte Monastery, Strupets, Bulgaria, 16th century fresco

    There are a few descriptions of the death of Judas, two of which are included in the modern Biblical canon:

    • Matthew 27:3–10 says that Judas returned the money to the priests and committed suicide by hanging himself. They used it to buy the potter's field. The Gospel account presents this as a fulfillment of prophecy. [13]
    • The Acts of the Apostles says that Judas used the money to buy a field, but fell headfirst, and burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. This field is called Akeldama or Field of Blood. [14]
    • The non-canonical Gospel of Judas says Judas had a vision of the disciples stoning and persecuting him. [15]
    • Another account was preserved by the early Christian leader, Papias: "Judas walked about in this world a sad example of impiety; for his body having swollen to such an extent that he could not pass where a chariot could pass easily, he was crushed by the chariot, so that his bowels gushed out." [16]
  • abbasgreta

    Sapphy: Phizzy and mP: Monin'all! Interesting comments! You could spend every hour of every day debating these details I guess. There isn't "enough scrolls in the world" to contain all the superfluous stuff that was or wasn't written down. Peace. G.

  • mP


    In other words, the truth is Luke isnt an expert or an eyewitness. hes just a nobody making stuff up, just like the so called apostle matthew and his gospel. its pretty obvious given the copyig of mark that no apostle of jesus wrote matthew.

    To say he was a first or 2nd hand witness is just plain lying. mark makes lots of geographical mistakes, something someone really there would not make. Again luke and matt copy him.

    In the case of Judas death, somebody lied or used lies somewhere inthe chain. That means their entire record is suspect. if they are wrong about judas, what else are they wrong about ?

    If you were told some packages of food in a supermarket you shop at were poisoned, would you eat anything from that shop ?

  • mP


    just admit luke has no credability. Everything you claim about his expertise or credability is a lie. A lie based on stories or legends given to us by the catholic church. The same church that has lied to us so many times its not funny. Why do you believe anything they say ?

  • abbasgreta

    mP: I stake my life on the fact that the bible is "inspired" of the Holy Spirit ("God-breathed"). I will admit to no such thing you suggest above and therefore commit blasphemy. Period. I do NOT demand that YOU should admit to anything YOU don't accept - I have merely posted MY findings, which can ALWAYS be refuted by any individual, I appreciate that. I suggest you consult an expert on the New Testament, like Tom Wright for example, or St Johns College, Nottingham. I was humble enough to realise I needed to do that. I believe your reasonings could be merely an expression of what you WISH or would LIKE the "facts" to be. But that's just my opinion and I am going to dare to state it. You are entitled to believe anything you want. Sadly, I have to say that, if this is a forum where someone's faith can be openly negated, then I'm outta here. What - I'm called "mentally diseased" by JWs and secretly thought to be a little that way inclined by some ex-jw "now non-believers" on here?? Comments on here that reflect New Age thinking, atheism, etc, whilst I vehemently disagree with them, are welcome by me. I would never ask anyone to deny their convictions or verbally attack them. So why would someone feel justified in labelling us new-found Christians "happy-clappy bible thumpin' froots", as someone expressed it? That is out of line. I do not need this. I am disappointed in the "attitude" (for want of a better word) to us 'young and fresh' and fulfilled "BORN AGAIN" Christians. (If you've not experienced it, don't knock it!) Peace and contentment to you all in your new lives free of the cult. G.x

  • mP


    Lets forget the personal emotions and get straight to the facts. We can both swear until we are blue but considering none of us were there, both cases mean nothing.

    • again how do you explain the fact that luke and acts cant agree on how judas died ?
    Matthew 27:5
    Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.
    Acts 1:18
    Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

    • How do you explain the fact that john and the synoptics cant agree on which day jesus died ?


    he consensus of modern scholarship is that the New Testament accounts represent a crucifixion occurring on a Friday, but a Thursday or Wednesday crucifixion have also been proposed. [96] [97] Some scholars explain a Thursday crucifixion based on a "double sabbath" caused by an extra Passover sabbath falling on Thursday dusk to Friday afternoon, ahead of the normal weekly Sabbath. [96] [98] Some have argued that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, not Friday, on the grounds of the mention of "three days and three nights" in Matthew before his resurrection, celebrated on Sunday. Others have countered by saying that this ignores the Jewish idiom by which a "day and night" may refer to any part of a 24-hour period, that the expression in Matthew is idiomatic, not a statement that Jesus was 72 hours in the tomb, and that the many references to a resurrection on the third day do not require three literal nights. [96] [99]

    In Mark 15:25 crucifixion takes place at the third hour (9 a.m.) and Jesus' death at the ninth hour (3 p.m.). [100] However, in John 19:14 Jesus is still before Pilate at the sixth hour. [101] Scholars have presented a number of arguments to deal with the issue, some suggesting a reconciliation, e.g., based on the use of Roman timekeeping in John but not in Mark, yet others have rejected the arguments. [101

    • Mt & Lk also cant agree on his pedigree, how is this possible ? somebody is either wrong or somebody is making stuff up.

    I wont repeat the lists here, because everyone knows they are different. Given that joseph was a step father and didnt get mary pregnant the version that one list is j and the other M, makes no sense. The only important list in any pedigree is one for actual blood relations which leaves us Mary. The two lists where they do converge still make mistakes.

    • The bible cant agree on who the 12 apostles are, different lists are given in different places. I have never known so many people out of agroup of 12 have two or three completely different names. how is this possible ?


    Matthew [ Mt 10:1–4 ]Mark [ Mk 3:13–19 ]Luke [ Lk 6:12–16 ]
    Simon, who is called PeterSimon (to whom he gave the name Peter)Simon, whom he named Peter
    Andrew, his brotherAndrewAndrew his brother
    James the son of ZebedeeJames the son of ZebedeeJames
    John, his brotherJohn the brother of James (to whom he gave the name Boanerges)John
    Matthew, the tax collectorMatthewMatthew
    James the son of AlphaeusJames the son of AlphaeusJames the son of Alphaeus
    ThaddaeusThaddaeusJudas the son of James
    Simon the ZealotSimon the ZealotSimon who was called the Zealot
    Judas IscariotJudas IscariotJudas Iscariot

    The list in the Gospel of Luke differs from Matthew and Mark at two points. It lists "Judas the son of James" instead of "Thaddeus". (For more information, see Jude the Apostle.)

    In the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus selected Peter, James, and John to witness his transfiguration and to be near him when he prayed at Gethsemane. In Mark, the twelve are obtuse, failing to understand the importance of Jesus' miracles andparables. [7]

    I havent labelled you anything. Again as i said before lets look at the facts. You are free to contribute other info if you wish. lets keep out the childish name calling level nonsnese out of this.

    I dont need to consult an expert when i can read the bible itself and see that different scriptures give different contradictory accounts. I know how to read, god knows how to write, we should be able to understand each other without someone in between.

  • QC

    Detail c oloring from different angles is refreshing, shows authenticity, no collusion.

    • Both are true, different time frames.

      Matthew 27:5
      Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.

      Acts 1:18
      Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

    • Lebbaeus surnamed Thaddeus, is Judas brother of James. “Lebbaeus” means “a man of heart.” “Thaddaeus” means “large-hearted” or “courageous.” Both were terms of endearment, nicknames of the second apostle named Judas. They are one and the same.
    • etc.

    The Bible is clever, attracts stumbling (fault finders) or truth seekers.

    Thanks for sharing to illustrate this point, even though your rant is off topic (improper).

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