Nice post, Lisa. Share your views on reparations.
Did You Claim Your Slavery Tax Credits?
Larc, I was thinking the same thing. Especially when Shelby (AGuest) said the Portugese started slavery--
I was thinking, "No, JEHOVAH started slavery."
What a crock of bull.
I think half of the reason black people can't "get over slavery" is because everyone's looking around the room going, "Hey did you own a slave? I didn't own no slave!" There has never been a forum for them to receive apologies and CLOSURE. Because no one wants to take responsibility and apologize, no, that would open them up to lawsuits for sure.
People need to have closure on issues before they can move forward. Closure is not saying, "Get over it or go back to Africa."
When I brought the baby to the Dr. and they took a family pedigree, my husband couldn't give them any info past his parents. The health records just don't exist. The family structure just doesn't exist. And this from a man whose parents were married for 48 years. Now imagine if his family was the norm of the American family, namely, divorced/remarried. He wouldn't have ANY health info to give to the Drs.
Yes, daily it seems, there is a reminder that a vital part of my family's history will never be recovered. I have baby books that some friends gave me for a baby gift. There's a Mom's side to complete and a Dad's side to complete (geneology-birthdays etc). Guess whose side is empty?
Makes me proud to know Jehovah put the whole human race through this to prove a point to something he created. Yeah right.
crownboy, I agree that a fund for education, etc is fine. We tried affirmative action and it seems to have run its course. Now let's improve on a good idea. Better schools etc. are the best way to encourage further education and education is a stepping stone to a better life.
I concede all of your futher points. I do not have enough history education to doubt any point you made. Thanks for the history lesson.
Expatbrit's article, from a very respected magazine, makes some very good points. The magazine is not a US publication. My husband received it at home for years and it was 1/2 world economics and 1/2 US. The statute of limitations is the most obvious.
I simply cannot conceive of reparations for one group and not every other group who has a claim over the centuries. The Chinese come to mind. This is not good for anyone. We all pay.
The point that the government should pay is not looking at the whole picture. Who pays the government? You and I and every other taxpayor, of any color.
The government does not have money sitting in coffers to give for something like this. Taxes will have to be raised. Yes, there is a lot of pork and very bad government spending. However, that will not change.
If they don't have the money to pay, they raise taxes. Are they only going to tax people who are not black? I doubt it.
Larc's point about the strong dominating the weak is right on.
Lisa's point about slavery and Jah is obvious. The Portugese got the idea from somewhere....they were Catholic were they not? The bible comes to mind.
Who says you need a lawsuit to get better schools? I think that all schools should be top notch. I agree whole heartedly that good schools are needed in bad neighborhoods. When I say bad neighborhoods I mean S. central LA where blacks are by far the majority as well as in Kentucky mountain communities where there is probably one black guy in the whole country.
As far as having this big national identity to celebrate and be proud of, its called AMERICAN. You want to know what race I am? American. You know what nationality my parents are? American. You want to know what traditions I celebrate? American. I know some people may be immigrant to this country so for them its understandable to be rather fond of their customs and traditions but even more important for their children instead of trying to force your traditions and customs on them let them get their own as Americans. Yes, those who don't know history are condemmed to repeat it but instead of focussing on all the things from the past why not work to make things in the future better.
Someone was talking about how this is a form of closure for them. What?!?!? None of the people suing were ever slaves. Sure, almost all of them may have faced racism in its ugliest forms but you were never a slave. At some point in time someone has done something to one of my ancestors. Chances are their decendants are still alive somewhere. Am I pissed off because of what may have happened to my ancestor and bitter about it? No. It happened a long time ago and has absolutely NOTHING to do with me so I couldn't care less. For all that, my ancestor my have been very deserving of what happened to them. Plain and simple there is nothing of yours still open that needs to be closed.
As for the person who says if the government allows claims to be filed then they'll do it because if the government says its ok then it must be alright. Remember that slavery wasn't illegal for quite a long period of time. The government said it was just fine to own slaves. You better watch out if you take the money because a hundred years or so down the road your idiot decendants may get sued because you did something was condoned by your government.
Hey, Lisa-Girl... peace to you... and correct me if I am wrong, but when did God (well, okay, you said "Jehovah", so I assume you mean God...) 'start' slavery... as we are discussing here - slavery of Africans by Europeans and Americans, which WAS started by the Portuguese, and yes, they were primarily Catholic, but you know my position on religion...
Indeed, there was slavery in the form of 'indentured' or 'unindentured' servitude... but even then, I can only see (at least in the Bible record, which is all I have to go on, right now), that it was first recorded to have occurred in Egypt. Did I miss something?
The accounts that I am aware of all occurred after the Israelites left Egypt - the Law Covenant, the Gibeonites, with the exception of Joseph's brothers selling HIM into slavery... and I dont' get the impression that that was a 'good' thing (although ultimately it turned out good for Israel... and then bad again). But I may be wrong. What do YOU know, girlie?
Oh, and of course, PEACE!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ (who ain't talkin' 'bout no ree-par-ray-shuns no 'mo, but 'bout slavry in gen'rul...)
I will answer Lisa first in a seperate post, then later on tomorrow everyone else, because I must go to indiana at 4am so I need some sleep.
Um...Lisa, You quoted me in this thread. Specifically my comments about the Celtic Families of People.
Then you made several comments, again asking me questions. For instance stating that I said they have it better off here, and that they should go back to africa. I think you got confused lass. I doubled read all of my comments and I never said that. It isnt a position of mine, but I re-read just in case, in a moment of heated passion, over this issue, I did say it. However, I did not say it. Others made those comments, not me.
*So what* if they don't know where they came from?First, I am not bitching about being Irish. I am rather demonstrating that other groups have suffered terribly in the last 200 years. Many black americans think they have it worse than anyone ever did in history ever ever. They did not. Many suffered equally and worse, including the Irish.
*So what* if they have no traditions of their own to pass to their children?
*So what* if they can't even acknowledge their past life without someone telling them to get over it.
Every ethnic group you've mentioned has : a language, customs, religion, etc to call their own. So you might bitch about being Irish but hey--you can always kiss the Blarney Stone for good luck.
Second, as to the blacks not having these things, traditions, language and so forth, you must have missed this statement that I made:
I will also state that there is no questioning the marring that slavery has done on a people. Two things I see as most vile about the way slavery in america was practiced. First is the removing of the man's and the woman's ancestral name, and thus identity. Second is the forced expulsion of any remains of their language with the same intent.
I know... we need to sue God. After all, if it's not his fault, whose fault is it?
AGuest, can you serve papers for us?
Joking aside (and AGuest, your posts here have been a pleasent change) good points have been made either side of the debate.
At the moment I am both for and against reperations. Intellectually I think "bull, unworkable". Emotionally I feel "but it's the right thing to do".
I do feel slightly involved; my great great great great great great great great grandfather (I think) was Sir John Hawkins. He was the first Englishman to run slaves to the Americas from Africa. Obviously not something one can feel responsible for, which perhaps is the point many people are making.
They can't feel responsible. If at the same time they want action taken to fight poverty and deprevation, whether it's on Jim Bob and Bubba's Trailer Park in Alabama, or in Compton, then great. It's when they don't feel responsible for societies past wrongs (reasonable) and don't want to fight other peoples' poverty and deprevation today (IMHO, more irresponsable than unreasonable) that I disagree.
What about still extant companies that made money from slaves? Well, if in 150 years time we find that aritificial sweetners have some long term effect on the social status and education of our children, the companies that sold them and still existed would get their asses sued, even though they didn't know they were doing wrong at the time.
On this basis, if there are identifiable companies that profited from slavery, then, despite the fact they didn't know it was wrong at the time, they should get their asses sued.
Why? Because it will give companies, like those PATENTING the genetic code of certain tribes, pause for thought... coporations should just have to live with the fact they will be bought to account if they abuse other peoples' rights, even if it takes 150 years. We will all live in a safer world as a result.
I know in my last post here I said I was posting briefly and I would answer everyone else later on. It is later on and I have reviewed the thread again. I think really over all that which needs to have been said, has been said well by all parties in this thread. Aguest you made some good points especially, and she is right yall that modern african slavery by europeans began with Portugal. I think we also agree that many races have suffered at various times, and that color is not a basis for that only.
So I will bid this thread adieu...adew...grr..adoo? dangit! damned french given us words that I cant spell.