Did You Claim Your Slavery Tax Credits?

by expatbrit 47 Replies latest jw friends

  • Hyghlandyr

    Some uneducated person said:

    To those of you who boldy flaunt your european ancestry and the unfortunate plight of the turn of the century immigrant, I would caution you to remember that whether an immigrant was russian, polish, irish, italian, german or other, NONE were lynched, persecuted and attacked violently by the KKK.

    I could not even finish this dudes post!

    I guess you dont know that the KKK was against the Irish Catholics. I guess you are unaware of the Molly McGuires, a non-existent terrorist organization upon whom many crimes were blamed, and then Irishmen were in FACT lynched as a result. I guess you are unaware that the Irish were called the niggers of europe, and white niggers here in the states.

    I guess you are unaware of signs hung outside of shops and businesses 'NO IRISH NEED APPLY'. I guess you are unaware that the Irish were in fact prevented from making purchases in certain places, that they were forced to create their own stores, just like freed blacks.

    I guess you are unaware of the attrocities in the Cromwellian era, when Irish men, women and children were kidnapped by gunpoint by soldiers from their homes in ireland and sold in slave markets in america ostensibly as indentured servants, except it was entirely against their will and they did not go free in the three, five or seven years as was common, in fact they never went free.

    I guess you are unaware that in the americas the Irish, the native americans, the hindus, jews, and palestinians were all sold as slaves and so treated! I guess you are unaware that the vast majority of the population of Monsterrat claims Irish/African descent, most being blacks with irish names, language, and customs, even to dancing Irish jigs!

    I guess you are unaware of the large numbers of Irish in this country that were arrested without cause merely on suspicion of being rabble rousers simply because they were Irish!

    Make no mistake about it sir those of european descent have suffered gravely at the hands of the anglo swine that first populated this country. The only benefit is, finally with the coming of Kennedy we were able to pretend we were white.

    And I have not even touched on the poles and jews and germans and italians and all the things that were done to these groups.

    As to the slavery issue do you really think it was because of some concern for their lessers that abolitionists started fighting slavery? Read some of their propganda from the time. They were concerned that whites were being enslaved. Virginia had instituted laws that the legal status of the mother, not the father, determined that of the child. Prior to that if the child of a slave was known to be the child of the 'massa' he had the full legal right of a free man. Such that there were black men owning plantations and slaves, many of whom were white. The abolitionists reported that whites, with an ounce of black blood were being kidnapped and taken back to the south, and that your daughter sir, and your sister maam, could be next.

    The arguement that I owe someone for what anglos did for a couple of hundred years merely because I happen to be born and raised here, is a tired arguement. But, I will say this, pay them off. Pay the damned reparations. I dont care how much it is. They will be spending it on whites anyhow. Then when they whine and bitch that I owe them something, while they are calling me cracker and I better not say ought to them? I can say, shut the frag up.

    And how dare you minimize the Irish Holocaust, An Gorta Mor. When nearly the entire island was wiped out by anglo policies.

    Recently some african nation complained that the USA owed them slave reparations for taking people from their country, which THEY sold. Well I say those countries owe US slave reparations for giving us the worst of the lot.

  • rhett

    Shouldn't the black tribal leaders in Africa be forced to pay up as well Utopian? Correct me if I'm wrong but they did quite well as a result of their selling their fellow countrymen. Where are the feelings of outrage towards their horrible actions? Hey, the white folks who actually made money off of the slave trade (the imigrants from the 1900's that cleaned toilets made millions because of slaves, I'm sure) had to get their product somewhere. Instead of focusing on the middle man or even the end user shouldn't there be more outrage at the producer?

    Perhaps the American Civil War ended in 1865, however, up until 1945, over 10,000 more blacks were lynched in the southern states during that period.

    Ok, so what about the imigrants from the same countries you mentioned that came here in the 1960's and worked their asses to make a life for themselves and their family? They're going to have to pay just as much as the family with a long history of affiliation with the KKK. How fair is that?

    They were not singled out for any special persecution nor were they prevented from publicly integrating into the american mainstream.

    Hmmm, let me see if I've got this straight. The poor imigrant workers who came here from Europe came here and worked their asses off to make a better life for themselves. They were poor. Correct me if I'm wrong but something tells me being poor quite effectively prevented them from publicly integrating int the american mainstream. Their children couldn't go to school because they had to go to work to help support their families. That sounds like a pretty good way to keep people from integrating into society. Now, many decades later after those same families worked and sacrificed to finally have a place in America they're going to be expected to pay billions of dollars to people who aren't willing to work and sacrifice like their grandparents and great grandparents did to make a life for themselves. Not only that, but they're paying for events that happened long before their ancestors even came here. As I already said, I seriously doubt that Irish imigrant really had that wonderful of a life or made that much money by sending his entire family to work in the sweatshops so they could buy dinner that night thanks to all the wonderful things that slavery helped bring about for him. Yes, I'm sure he's very greatful for it will be totally understanding that his great grandchildren will be paying out billions of dollars that he helped earn by working hard to make a better life for his family to some other people who were wronged by people he never even knew.
    I would also like to remind you that while it is true blacks have had a rather shitty life thanks to segregation and the KKK, that is not the issue here. The issue is about reimbursing people for the labor of their ancestors from hundres of years ago. Even though lynchings were common until 1945 which you brought to our attention slavery ended with the civil war. People did not make the billions and billions of dollars that you talk about by lynching blacks. What? Is the arguement for slavery reparations so weak you have to bring up even more issues that came up long after slavery (you know, the thing you're trying to get billions of dollars for) was dead and gone?
    I think the concept of original sin is preposterous and is one of the biggest reasons I just cannot believe in the bible. The thought that generations and generations of innocent people should have to pay for the mistakes of their ancestors is rediculous.
    For all that, if 100 years ago a man killed my great great grandfather I would NOT being going after the guy's offspring who are my age because it was their ancestor that comitted that wrong.
    Mistakes were made in the past. Instead of bitching and whining about how your ancestors were so wronged by someone else's ancestors why not go out and actually try to make a difference in your life now? What's the matter? Is crap like this the only way you blacks can make something of themselves? Of course not! They're as stong and intelligent as any other race. Its just the idiots who refuse to let go of their past and now incist on flaming the race issue even more that are doing this and don't deserve a penny for what was done to their enslaved ancestors.

  • rhett
    Well I say those countries owe US slave reparations for giving us the worst of the lot.

    Hehehehehehe, I like that!!!

  • D8TA
    To those of you who boldy flaunt your european ancestry and the unfortunate plight of the turn of the century immigrant, I would caution you to remember that whether an immigrant was russian, polish, irish, italian, german or other, NONE were lynched, persecuted and attacked violently by the KKK.

    I see, and um, of course...those people in "white hoods" never did go after Jews, Asians, Spanish, Italian, Arabic, Indian (India)etc. etc., or such right? Naaaaw. These people from these cultural backgrounds never had to sleep in "fear". Right? And never were discriminated in U.S. history by the "main stream" of society? Is this what are you saying? And lynching...never, never. Oh wait...I've got a song to sing..."I've been working on the RAILROAD...alll the live long daaay....". Have you actually READ the history on that? No? Didn't think so. Somebody needs to actually read FACTS and not have a revisionist point of view.

    None were prevented from making purchases, drinking in community fountains, or riding the same public transportation.
    Again, I laugh at your ignorance. People of various Africana decent, WERE NOT the ONLY ones denied these services. You really should attend a "real" college. This is high school debate club crap....no worse, J.R. High.

    Perhaps the American Civil War ended in 1865, however, up until 1945, over 10,000 more blacks were lynched in the southern states during that period. I don't remember any such styled incidents of violence occurring anywhere up north or in any of the large american cities where immigrants settled.
    Are you in a "special ed" class or something? Or is it, that you have your head shoved up so far in your ass? Let me give you a hint, READ UP ON YOUR PACIFIC NORTHWEST, RAILROAD, and MINING INDUSTRY history.

    The argument of "my ancestors came here on a boat and worked hard....blah blah blah blah"..is outdated and weak. They were not singled out for any special persecution nor were they prevented from publicly integrating into the american mainstream. That fact conveniently escapes your notice.
    Boy! Again another IGNORANT statement! Perhaps you can explain why my Grandparents, whom escaped to Hungarian 50's revolution and came to the U.S., WERE singled out for NOT speaking english. WHO were HARRASSED VIOLENTLY by U.S. citizens, for where they came globally. That WERE PREVENTED from intergrating in to the "american mainstream". If it wasn't for another HUNGARIAN who had their foot in the door...my grandparents would of been S.O.L.

    The northern industrial economy and the southern agricultural economy benefitted immensely FROM THE PRODUCTIVITY of SLAVE LABOR, period. That "free of charge" productivity grew the GNP & GDP of this country 100 fold during the 19th century. Check your facts.
    This is correct. Slaves from Africa were the MAJORITY of slave labor, yet they were NOT THE ONLY ETHNICAL GROUP ENSLAVED.

    Now, no matter how your immigrant ancestors arrived, the fact is they found the land of opportunity this government was able to provide, which was created and built upon slave labor.
    EVERYTHING???? Every single solitary THING in the U.S. was built on Slave Labor....mah..mah...mwahahhahhaha! You crack my freaking sides. Every Business? Farm? Industrial complex? Construction company? GEEEBUS H. C! My god! Tell me you are not this IGNORANT! For the love of crickets! Please, do tell us how slave labor EFFECTED EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY FOUNDATION of VARIOUS INDUSTURIES PRIVATE/PUBLIC that you claim credit of your argument for. Please do. I haven't had this much of a good laugh in a long while.

    How dare you minimize the black holocaust? How dare you take for granted the many peaceful nights your ancestors (and you) have enjoyed sleeping without fear of white robes or masks?
    How DARE YOU jump to CONCLUSIONS about the heredity of individuals who post on this board you freakin' moron! Who the HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE to DICTATE JUDGEMENT on people who come various cultures in the U.S.??? WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE to WEIGHING ANY JUSTIFICATION of one Ethnic group over another's tragedies in history??? You have a narrow mind.

    Now granted...the current LAW SUITS against COMPANIES that existed pre-civil war time ARE JUSTIFIED. Any company or persons who had DIRECT profit due to SLAVE labor (albiet it be African, Asian, South American and YES European) should PAY reperations!

    As for the common tax payer of this day? I suggest you take that telephone pole outta your ass, quit your crying, and come to reality. There is NO WAY you can justify any citizens of the U.S. to pay for repreations. NONE. NADDA. ZIP.

    WHO will you tax? Since there are citizens descended from EVERY PART of the world....WHO do you think should pay? Who?

    And dont give me this "Money is not repreations, it could be other programs" crap. Nobody here on this board is that stupid to believe this line of crap. It's all about moolah, nothing more.

    Let me give you a nickles worth of free advice my friend: When a tragedy such as SLAVERY has happened in history, you dont go around saying EVERYONE should pay....no matter HOW MUCH IS OWED. Justice doesn't work that way. Makes as much sense as buying a shotgun, going out in public and shooting people...because in your mind, EVERYONE should hold responsibility to the actions of a select group of industries and/or people in history. Much less any "new comers" or ancestors of those people.

    I only see one point in your argument...JUSTIFYING GREED.

    Try THINKING out your response before stepping on peoples toes.


  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    To Highlander, Rhett and others:

    I knew it wouldn't be long before the age-old "irish sob story" would surface. When you ention that irishmen were called the "niggers" of europe, I have to laugh. The only factor causing any separation for irish people was their inherited catholicism, not SKIN color. Irish people are WHITE, and anglo-saxon like their northern european conterparts. No matter how much you would like us to believe that poor innocent irish immigrants were of a different color, they were NOT. White is white.

    It may hurt your feelings, but it has been said that there is a certain degree of truth underneath most stereotypes. It is a common fact that many irish immigrants caused their conscientious brothers undue harm and negative publicity by engaging in revelries and crime. I trust I won't have to mention any infamous irish gangsters from the 1900 - 1930 period.

    Also, what brought the irish here to america was exploitation and abuse by the british, not issues of skin color as the irish and the british are the SAME color. Your argument was weak in that regard. While life for immigrants was difficult, a.k.a. working construction, working railroads, working dangerous factory jobs, evil bosses, the fact is they were ENCOURAGED to come to america and bring their cheap labor. It is the irish, italian, german and polish immigrants that made people like Andrew Carnegie rich. However, how many southern blacks did your ancestors work side-by-side with in those menial jobs?

    Do you know what blacks were doing after slavery? They were not working in factories, living in ehtnic tenements, or sending money back to europe for the rest of the family. They were sharecropping on someone else's land. They were working only for food and shelter. No progress, no promise and no opportunity.

    So, while immigrants were exploited for the menial jobs, (mostly because of class and education NOT COLOR), blacks weren't even good enough for that, only sharecropping to eat another day.

    Now, as far as the KKK against non-african groups, I challenge any of you scholarly, intelligent, elite, to produce documented evidence of violent campaigns carried out by the KKK against german, polish, irish, scottish, or british immigrants. The KKK for decades has complained about catholics, their large families and their growth, but try to find evidence of catholic lynchings? Irish lynchings? You already know the answer. Grandstanding and attemtping to share in the persecution of blacks in order to appease consciences is an old strategy to minimize history and reduce responsibility.

    As far as irish "rabble-rousing" is concerned, it is just like italians and the mafia stereotype. You create it, you own it. Italians may complain about organized crime, but they do just as much to profit from it and perpetuate it and wear it as a badge of honor. Irish americans have done the same. You enjoy drinking, fighting and the attention that goes with both characterizations. Let's not be hypocrites.

    Now, produce evidence of lynchings, church burnings, home burnings, rape, murder, segregation, that proves european immigrants suffered in the same manner as post-civil war blacks, and I will retract my original statements and issue to one an all a public apology.

    The fact is you can't. All of you are proof of that america is a land of opportunity. Despite immigrant suffering, the opportunity here was better than what they left behind. So today, after a few generations, you are college educated, working, making progress, and are free to think and participate ON AN EQUAL BASIS with the rest of the country, without hinderance.

    In 2000, a federal judge from Arkansas was arrested for shoplifiting in a WAL-MART store because he "fit" the description of the actual shoplifter. I could go on with hundreds of examples. Even Denzel Washington watched an elderly white woman rush off the elevator he was riding on because she was afraid.

    I applaude your efforts and am grateful that all of you shared in this debate because at least you were honest enough to participate, share and let it out. Most americans would run from the discussion.

    But, just as an experiment, when you return to work on Monday morning, I ask that you honestly count the first ten workers you encounter in your immediate area, and then ask yourself "out of every ten workers in this company, did I see two asians, two hispanics, two blacks, two whites, two native americans?". I think we all know the answer.

    Whites feel integrated as soon as one or two minorities are present. As long as the ratio is never equal, whites feel safe. If you are honest, and you desire to bridge racial gaps, please read "The Two Americas, Separate and Un-Equal".

    Thank you!

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    To D8TA:

    While you became incensed and launched personal attacks in your arguments, I did not. As far as education is concerned, I have more than the average and have taught at the University level.

    I can only ask you if you have ever completed any course work in african-american studies or race?

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    I thought I might offer you some objective reading concerning the actual historical facts and statistics concerning "ethnic immigration" during the 19th and early 20th centuries. Dr. Steven Mintz, history department at the University of Houston is a recognized pioneer on this subject and has been conducting seminars and teaching courses regarding immigration.

    He and his staff have gone to considerable, extreme lengths at compiling and researching statistics. I leave you to form your own opinions:


    Also, please review some of the information, presentations, studies, essays and articles posted at this link:


  • waiting

    Actually, this is a pretty good discussion. Usually, race discussions here fall apart sooner. Too many emotions & stereotypes. Thank you as it's a very hard topic.

    I am middle aged, white, female, Irish Catholic, some college - and I pay my taxes with many moans (just so that you know in advance.)

    To my very limited knowledge, almost all ethnic groups come to America and are looked down upon at least for one generation. As UR brought out - they usually come here looking for a better life, and don't find it for a couple of generations, but (as a group) usually do find a better life - or at least not worse.

    They may come as indentured servants, even sold to come over here (Chinese - who built the railroads westward). But a lot of them came freely, albeit out of desperate needs.

    However, the vast majority of Africans who came to America were captured from their homes (many times by other African slave hunters), lacking total freedom or any prospect of freedom for themselves or any generation of their children.....who were many times sold off from their parents.

    True differences.

    Of interest, within the last year, there was an exhibit touring America which was primarily postcards & actual pictures of how some blacks were treated in American even up to the 50's. It was horribly spellbinding.

    One ACTUAL POSTCARD WITH ACTUAL PHOTOGRAH from the South showed a young black man with his hands tied behind his back, hung with neck broken, burned & charred almost beyond recognition (you could tell he was black because of his arm color) and the caption printed below was "Southern Bar-b-q." No joke, actual humorous postcard & photograh. A young man had sent it home to his yankee parents saying he was enjoying his stay in the south.

    Another picture was of many white people standing on a bridge with a 40's police car behind them. Policeman in uniform with hat & badge on in picture. Hanging dead under the bridge was a black woman and a young black man (hands tied behind their backs). The young man had been accused of accosting a white girl - he was taken to be hanged. The woman was his mother - she tried to stop the white men. So they hung her too.

    As a group, and as individuals no others have been so massively abused as blacks in America. American Indians are also on that scale of abuse....but their sin was having too much land.

  • rhett

    Yeah, if you're so tired of hearing about the Irish sob story think how tired we are of hearing the African sob story. Also, what does the KKK have to do with slavery reparations? The fact of the matter is these people are wanting free money because their ancestors were not compensated for their work. Nothing more, nothing less. What does the KKK have to do with that? We're not debating what happened in this country until the 1960's. We're debating what happened until the end of the civil war. Since that's what this thread is about I think the idea that people living today should have to pay for abuses of the past is ridiculous just the same way I think all humanity is suffering because two people ate some bad fruit in the garden of eden. Why should the high tech industry have to pay for the mistakes of people they never even met?
    Now as long as we're talking about how horrible life is for black people Utopian said

    Do you know what blacks were doing after slavery?

    And even more importantly, do I care? No. At least not for the purpse of this discussion. This is about if blacks should get money for what happened to their ancestors WHILE they were slaves, not after they were slaves, but WHILE they were slaves.

    All of you are proof of that america is a land of opportunity. Despite immigrant suffering, the opportunity here was better than what they left behind. So today, after a few generations, you are college educated, working, making progress, and are free to think and participate ON AN EQUAL BASIS with the rest of the country, without hinderance.

    What? Like this is somehow denied to black people? Last I checked they were free to do all of those things just as easily as anyone else.

    You enjoy drinking, fighting and the attention that goes with both characterizations. Let's not be hypocrites.

    So they're not ashamed of their herritage. If their skin was a different color it would be applauded and called "black pride."

    It may hurt your feelings, but it has been said that there is a certain degree of truth underneath most stereotypes.

    Including blacks. You tell us to go count the ethnicities of people we work with. Almost everyone I work with is white as well as most of the people I've worked with in the past. Right now I sell meteorites for a living while also doing some freelance computer consulting. There are hardly any blacks in the meteorite community at all. Is it because there's lots and lots of hatred for them? Of course not! All the meteorite collectors, dealers, researchers are as open minded as you can get when it comes to that. Blacks just don't try to get into that very much. Using your reasoning I guess it could be said that they're just to stupid to handle it and to lazy to learn the classification system (trust me, I've heard from many other people the classification system for meteorties is one of the most complex systems in all of science). Also, at least in my area of the country, there are very few black network engineers or website designers. Its not because they are held back and can't get the jobs. Its because very few even apply and even when they do they are judged on their ability and not their skin color. I know one of the companies I used to work at the entire IT staff was white except for one black guy. That black guy was brought in to lead a bunch of the white guys in redesigning the companies website. He wasn't brought in for diversity. He was brought in because he was smart and had worked hard to get where he was and was just damn good at what he did. Using your own logic you could say there are very few blacks in the IT industry because they're too stupid and lazy to do anything more than clean the offices and stare at the neat looking computers they're dusting. As far as slavery reparations go, how does that make black people look? You're the one talking about how stereotypes are earned by the way people act. Suing your way to riches because of what happened to the ancestors they never met sure isn't going to do much to help make them be percieved as good, solid, hard working individuals. Seems that would rahter enforce the stereotype that you yourself has said is at least somewhat based in truth.
    Also, you go on about how imigrants suffering for a few generations eventually led to them leading much better lives. Um, in case you haven't noticed, even though blacks did suffer back when they were slaves (remember, this thread is about slavery reparation) did suffer for generations their decendants are much better off than people of the same age back in the country in which their ancestors came from. You can't convince me that people living in the US is worse than living in Africa. Basically, for whatever reasons people long ago left their homeland and came to america. Sure, life sucked big time for them when they got here but now their decendants are living a much better life than they would be living had they never left. If you're so gung ho to support slavery reparations then buy a one way ticket for all the blacks that want to go back to africa. Let them go live the life that they were so wrongly denied BY THEIR OWN PEOPLE who sold them into slavery. Tell them that if they want to come back to america to find their own way back.

  • AGuest

    (My Lord KNOWS I hate this subject, I truly do... BUT...)

    May you all have peace!

    As a black, negro, African American (whatever) descendant of slaves who was born in this county in the late 1950's, I feel 'qualified' to speak.

    First, Whites didn't start slavery; the Spanish and Portuguese did.

    Second, since slavery had been around since times beginning, those captured in war and those indebted could be enslaved, those tribal leaders who sold their people into slavery did not do it with the understanding of what slavery in this country would mean. There were 'rules' to slavery, dear ones. Universal rules.

    Third, this is 2002... and I am STILL afraid to go to certain parts of this country. Okay, some of ya'll are afraid to go to Compton or Watts...or parts of Brooklyn (and perhaps rightly so)... but I am talking like, whole counties and even states. Two (2) VERY nerve-shattering events in 1994 (one in Ozark, Arkansas, and the other in Birmingham, Alabama) resolved for ME, that I would NEVER live anywhere on the mainland of THIS country but California, and although I grew up here, even Southern California is questionable now...

    I remember riding on the back of the bus, trolley car, etc.

    I remember the 'whites only' signs for bathrooms and drinking fountains.

    I remember not being served at the Copper Penny in College Grove (San Diego) in 1970 because of my skin, while my black best girlfriend (who does not LOOK black because she is bi-racial) was given her hot fugde sundae.

    I remember being a little girl in the late 60's and when travelling from California back to Virginia our car breaking down after dark in Alabama and seeing my father sweat BULLETS every time a car passed us and trying his DAMNDEST to get the car fixed before 'someone' stopped, as my stepmother hissed at us to stay down and BE QUIET!

    I remember being forced to leave my neighborhood and go over 30 miles one way to school, with people who did not WANT me there... and had NO qualms about letting me know it, having to sit in the BACK of the classroom (although I had vision problems)...

    I remember being terrified for my 10 year old son, when, in 1994 in Ozark, Arkansas, some men asked the clerk of the gas station, "You gonna serve them niggers?" and being GRATEFUL that I only had a young boy with me and not a grown man, against these three obviously very agitated gentlemen.

    I remember when, in 1998, after having pumped some gas at a station in San Diego, hearing my best friend (the same one) respond to my look of utter shock with, "Yeah, Girl, things have CHANGED; you don't wanna come back here..." after three white youths SPAT at us! And no, she wouldn't let me say anything to those boys... my Lord KNOWS I was gonna!

    Now, with all of that said (and believe me, I have more), I wish to say:

    1. I know/knew nothing about any IRS reparation scam and would not have applied for such if I did not know it for MYSELF to be legit...

    2. I would absolutely apply for ANY tax deduction, rebate, reparation or what have you that the government of this country deems just, equitable and legal, no matter WHAT anyone else may think of it... just like every OTHER qualified citizen of this country...

    3. The taxpayers of this country would NOT pay any reparations, if they ever came, for the simple fact that such money would, and SHOULD, come out of coffers amassed LONG before any of you... or your parents, and maybe even grandparents... were born and/or began paying taxes... and yes, there are records...

    4. The fact that Japanese interment victims and Holocaust victims are deemed worthy of reparations... Japan, Vietman, Korea, etc., are worthy of being rebuilt by U. S. dollars after WAR... justified or unjustified... and the estates of former slaves are NOT worthy of some type of restitution... is an 'injustice' I can't even BEGIN to see how anyone can wish to justify...

    5. The fact that many and most U. S. citizens would welcome a TAX rebate... consider it warranted, run to apply for it and not give a single THOUGHT as to who pays for it... but will decry a reparation... which boggles my mind...

    6. The fact that those who think any reparation paid would be paid by THEM, as a penalty imposed on THEM, rather than paid by the GOVERNMENT and COMMERICAL BUSINESS... as a penalty imposed on GOVERNMENT and COMMERCIAL BUSINESS for their part IN slavery... is as ludicrous a thinking as there could ever be, and is, contrastly, the TRUE form of greed in this matter... as it has absolutely NOTHING to DO with the American taxpayer... but the government and the estates, trusts, and foundations of commercial businesses BUILT on slavery... and if the American taxpayer (MANY of whom, incluidng myself, dear ones, are BLACK) IS forced to pay... by means of increased taxes or whatever to compensate, then the American taxpayer should be angry at and BLAME... the GOVERNMENT... who was responsible from the beginning... for IMPOSING such increase... rather than those they use as scapegoats to account for it...

    My goodness, people... justice... is justice. And injustice... is injustice. And sometimes justice can only be realized by imposing a fine and demanding restitution. WE DO IT ALL THE TIME. It is called a LAWSUIT.

    Sure, the slaves are dead. But you CANNOT deny the devastating affect it had on this country... while at the same time it was the means to BUILD this country... economically. The United States IS the strongest country economically... by VIRTUE OF SLAVERY. Slavery... unpaid labor... provided the FOUNDATION and allowed leaders of a young and new country to amass wealth that they would not have been able to otherwise, had they PAID FOR LABOR. How do you not see this?

    Okay, so... slaves worked for free (and room and board is NOT wage, not if the labor was not agreed to). Not only that, they were BOUGHT AND SOLD... at great profits! The U.S. was built up! It is now the leading economic power!

    If YOU took some person from say Mexico, brought them across the border, voluntarily or involuntarily (the latter being KIDNAPPING... do you UNDERSTAND this?!)... had them work for you for YEARS... gave the MINIMUM (even substandard) in food, clothing and shelter... and such one died... perhaps in your care, perhaps after it... but their family could PROVE that this occurred and brought suit... do you REALLY think that you would not be LIABLE? Do you really think you would not have to pay, if found guilty? And who would you PAY? The person is dead. But... does not their ESTATE have a right to any fines and penalties imposed on you?!

    So... PAY THE WORKER! Whether she came voluntarily... or was kidnapped... she is, after all... BY LAW... 'WORTHY' OF THE WAGE!

    (Shaking head)

    SJ, a slave of Christ, who simply marvels... and I mean MARVELS... at the 'heart' of earthing man. Go figure.

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