Introduction and a note on several posts here

by LizO 95 Replies latest jw experiences

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  LizO

  Hey people,

  as for myself, after extensive study I have concluded that it's not possible for me to trust the bible and so I am not active anymore. However, let me please add something to the discussions here:

  I find lots of things on this forum dishonest and distressing and certain accusations are straight-out ridiculous and illogical. Such kind of criticism does only strengthen whomever is in the organization because it weakens the reliability of arguments which indeed are valid. Examples for such intellectually dishonest criticism are that the organization would be full of

  - bad intentions

  - trying to squeeze money for personal interests

  - cruelty

  - trying to mind-control

  Also, it's funny to read critiscm by people who use such a self-righteous and arrogant language/tone. I do believe you can critisize and should do so rather heavily and clearly then lightly. However it's straight out ridiculous critizing an organization for dishonesty and inconsistency by using arguments which are just that.

  Anyone who has stayed a couple of years around there knows that the organization is full of good and at atimes wonderful people. Of course there are also lots of power/money-loving people too but they were in the minority everywhere I had been. Now, why not critizise the latter as well as any structures and culture which leads to bad outcomes without claiming at every single step that all of the leadership would have bad and cruel intentions?

  Just my 2 cents if anyone cares ;)

  Liz
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  punkofnice

  Welcome Liz. I hope you are in good health.

  I find lots of things on this forum dishonest and distressing and certain accusations are straight-out ridiculous and illogical.

  Yeah, well this is where you can add valuable comments and counter arguments. Actually, it can be quite stimulating.

  Please remember that most of the posters here are xJWs as am I...an xJW elder. It was being an elder that opened my eyes to dark things in the watchtower(R) society. That's why the focus will be on the watchtower(R).

  I agree all need an objective stance when making comments but sometimes we need a rant.

  Please enjoy your stay here.

  Examples for such intellectually dishonest criticism are that the organization would be full of

  - bad intentions

  - trying to squeeze money for personal interests

  - cruelty

  - trying to mind-control

  What makes you think that such comments are 'intellectually dishonest'? (Sorry, I'd like to see examples before analysis of the claims which is only fair.)

  Perhaps if you feel this way then ask questions to see if there is any evidence for such claims..............that's what I did.

  All the best Paul
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  Honesty

  LizO, can you list some of your specific grievances relating to:

  - bad intentions

  - trying to squeeze money for personal interests

  - cruelty

  - trying to mind-control

  Thank you.
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  stillin

  Of course we don't WANT to think that actual individual people whom we have had as actual friends were up to anything dark and sinister. I personally believe that as men like Rutherford and others found that people payed attention to them, they began, and still do, to fortify the teaching in such a manner as to keep it all together. Not deliberately deceptive, but more like actually believing that this is what The Lord wants them to do.

  Now the size of the group of followers has grown and more (I'll politely call them) guidelines are needed to control such a mixed crowd.

  Some of the people here have been trampled by the herd. Some have been the objects of mean-spirited shepherds. They are certainly entitled to their perceptions.

  I'm all for mutual respect.

  welcome to this forum!
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  Lozhasleft

  Welcome to the forum. As Stillin has said many here have been trampled by the WTBS. They are the legalistic organisation that has spawned the "snitching on your brother", the power and control used by elders, the shunning, the demands for money, the rejection of higher education, etc etc. These things have resulted in many losses for members here. Losses of families, careers, financial security, self esteem, and WHOLE LIVES. There is little wonder therefore that people have so much to say in response, since the WTBS is so reprehensible.

  Loz x
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  punkofnice

  Anyone who has stayed a couple of years around there knows that the organization is full of good and at atimes wonderful people.

  ....and many of my family are 'wonderful people'. I was a JW all my life....and I hope I was a wonderful person.

  Many of do not have gripes against individual or collective JWs but the critisism is directed at the 8 men in Brooklyn who claim to be 'the faithful slave(TM)'.
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  Xanthippe

  Anyone who has stayed a couple of years around there

  How long have you been in Liz? Are you married to an elder? (They really get to know what's going on at their 'loving' meetings) Did you pioneer? I worry that you are just living on the surface of that religion, that's all I'm saying. The longer you stay in and the more you get involved the more shocking it becomes.

  I sometimes dislike the rudeness on this forum but I can't say I have ever seen anything dishonest and untrue spoken about this religion. After thirty years in myself, ten years regular pioneering and being married to an elder I do know what is really going on.
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  Julia Orwell

  Hey Liz, like you I find that most jws are good eggs, decent people trying to lead a good life. I feel sorry for them because they are held by strong webs of lies. I certainly wasn't a money grubbing control freak; I really thought I was pleasing 'Jehovah.' That applies to elders in my experience too: people who really care and are trying to do good.

  You'll find the reason so many here only highlight the negatives is because they are angry or in the healing process. I myself find solace in some of these negative things because I know I'm not alone in having certain feelings. Here also is a good place to rant about negative Jw experiences to achieve some sort of catharsis with an audience who understands.

  Perhaps you could say misery likes company too: if we are sad about a shunning or something, we can read others' experiences and also receive some support. Some people do have an axe to grind too and may overreact, but hey, when you get thousands of people of all ages, dispositions and backgrounds, you'll get all types.
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  LizO

  Let me roughly respond to a couple of questions/comments.

  @punkofnice, honesty etc.: You are asking for examples of instances of dishonesty. Here are 2 very recent ones:

  1) I believe your post punkofnice (http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/256102/1/Were-Jehovahs-Witnesses-We-speak-out-in-fearlessness) is dishonest by claiming with subtle voice that Jehovas Witnesses would only preach where there is money. This claim is definitely wrong according to my experience. Do you really believe punkofnice that they are out there to raise money? And how do you think they enjoy their money then?

  2) Every referral to "lies" (e.g. your last comment Julia Orwell) is wrong as well. People who know the organization and say that the leadership is deliberately saying false things is - as I believe - dishonest. However, it's more what stillin says: The people are not delibaretely deceptive but have convinced themselves.

  This distinction I am stressing here is not semantics. It's a fundamental difference to understand whether people are deliberately cruel and liars or just overconvinced (perhaps wrongly) with their own understanding of matters. I believe it's just unnecessary and objectively wrong to assign bad motives to Jehovah's Witnesses and does not lead to a helpful discussion. It makes much more sense to discuss explicit and implicit doctrines and their effects on members.

  @Xanthippe: You are worried that I do only know the surface. I can assure that is not the case having had close relationships over many years to various people including special pioneers, elders, COs, DOs and Bethel family.

  @Julia Orwell: I do agree that a discussion and subsequent "catharsis" is good and healthy and that is my main reason for engaging here.
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  Nosferatu

  Anyone who has stayed a couple of years around there knows that the organization is full of good and at atimes wonderful people.

  The JWs I found that were the most genuinely good people were the ones who were either "weak in the truth" or were marked as "questionable". They are the ones who don't judge others because everyone else is always judging them. As for the others, they're just brainwashed to "give a good example". When you quit going to meetings or get disfellowshipped, their real colors show. They either ignore you or use their interaction with you to get you back to the meetings. They don't genuinely care what you do outside of the kingdom hall.