"Mentally Diseased" comment makes news

by freemindfade 36 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  Gentledawn

  Ruby456 original post that I replied to at the start:

  Another thing is that if the investigators checked with sociololgists and psychologists they would find that new religious movements and cults do attract lots of people who do have mental illnesses and that those who have a mental illness do not remain within these organisations for very long and when they do leave they very often leave in anger and rage. So for a new religious movement to tell its followers have nothing to do with apostates as they are mentally ill/mentally diseased they cannot be held responsible for inciting hatred if it is the case that there is mental illness involved. Plus if the whole thrust of the article is saying stay away from them, do not engage them they are simply saying what the police or anyone else in authority would say - take responsibility to avoid rather than confront, keep safe.
  

  then again if apostates are the ones inciting hatred of Jehovahs it would only be right for Jehovahs witnesses to warn its followers to avoid them - it would be the rational and indeed law abiding thing to
  

  so really this is a non starter imo.

  Breakdown of what you seem to be claiming here:
  

  • "new religions" (aka 19th century doomsday cults and fundamentalist movements) attract people who are already mentally ill (<--- I asked for a citation regarding this claim), ones who don't stay in very long
  • people leave "the truth"
  • therefore, people who leave are mentally ill/diseased

  
  

  The watchtower does NOT disfellowship (oust) and subsequently shun people who leave due to mental illness. They are told to shun EVERYONE who leaves.

  gentedawn
  

  Hunsberger and Brown 1984, atran 2004
  

  other than the above ("Hunsberger and Brown 1984, atran 2004"), you don't need to convince me as I know what you are saying already, but what does the law and the police require of religion? for example where is there any incitefulness to hatred in the watchtower extract when what it is saying is to avoid - and avoid false teachers and apostates at that?

  Then, by way of reply:

  I'm not cherry picking - the link between mental illness and new religious movements was a shock for me. But then again 1 in four people will experience mental illness according to the Mental health foundation so I'll admit that this a controversial arena.

  Your original statement was that "new religious movements" ATTRACT people with mental illness, meaning they were ill before joining the religion/becoming a JW. Then when asked for a citation, you gave the name of 2 researchers as a reference plus a year-date, a comma, followed by a vague "altran 2004".

  
  
• 

  Ruby456

  gentle dawn

  here is what I said and I stand by this. I have also given you a page number from Atran's 2004 book as you said you siad you could not find the other references.

  Looking at the issue with the cool light of rationality and from a neutral perspective, honestly this passage from the Watchtower does not violate any laws in the UK. it really really doesn't for one big reason - Watchtower is simply warning its followers to avoid rather than to incite.

  Another thing is that if the investigators checked with sociololgists and psychologists they would find that new religious movements and cults do attract lots of people who do have mental illnesses and that those who have a mental illness do not remain within these organisations for very long and when they do leave they very often leave in anger and rage. So for a new religious movement to tell its followers have nothing to do with apostates as they are mentally ill/mentally diseased they cannot be held responsible for inciting hatred if it is the case that there is mental illness involved. Plus if the whole thrust of the article is saying stay away from them, do not engage them they are simply saying what the police or anyone else in authority would say - take responsibility to avoid rather than confront, keep safe.

  then again if apostates are the ones inciting hatred of Jehovahs it would only be right for Jehovahs witnesses to warn its followers to avoid them - it would be the rational and indeed law abiding thing to

  so really this is a non starter imo.
• 

  Ruby456

  btw, I don't endorse what the watchtower says about leavetakers and apostates. I am simply saying what problems there are in framing what they say about apostates as hate speech as defined by the law.
• 

  Ruby456

  gentledawn

  The watchtower does NOT disfellowship (oust) and subsequently shun people who leave due to mental illness. They are told to shun EVERYONE who leaves.
  

  the quotes from the newpaper and this thread are about apostates rather than about disfellowshipped ones. witnesses can be disfellowshipped for other things than apostasy and yes I agree that all disfellowshipped ones are shunned but that is a different thread.

  I am highlighting what the watchtower terms apostates and false teachers and whether or not what they say can be said to be hate speech as defined by UK law as this seems to be the issue highlighted by the newspaper and the discussion that follows. If you want to discuss something else then start another thread if you want me to reply to that.
• 

  Ruby456

  my own view is that new religious movements and cults should somehow be exposed for their targeting of vulnerable people or more specifically targeting people and recruiting them when they are going through a vulnerable phase in their lives. These sorts of religious movements work for those who are trying to give up and recover from substance abuse but not for mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, stress and alienation of adolescence that requires medical intervention and other such conditions that cause much suffering for individuals and their families.

  edit: perhaps the public could be warned that witnesses are particularly targeting those who are sighing and groaning but that such ones tend to leave in dismay and frustration having to fight their way out when they are the most vulnerable. So the material that I am drawing attention to could be used to benefit the xjw world.
• 

  Vidiot

  Regardless of whether or not it's actual "hate speech" by the legal definition of the term, the pure undiluted viciousness and animosity behind the speech is pretty plain to see.

  If that doesn't give someone pause, I don't know what would.
• 

  freemindfade

  Most people don't understand or even believe it unless you have experienced it from JW, Scientology, or other high coercive persuasive groups, because on paper it seems you could come and go as you please. But we know the reality is hateful and extremely destructive. And its so ingrained (i believe) that even if the witnesses removed the policy (in print) it would go on. It's a major part of who they are.