Bart Ehrman: Paul Viewed Jesus Christ as an Angel.

by Emery 52 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Emery
    Emery

    In his upcomming book, "How Jesus Became God" Bart Ehrman has a new view on how Paul viewed Jesus. Since I am a huge Bart Ehrman fan I am a member of his blog site, http://ehrmanblog.org link to direct blog entry: http://ehrmanblog.org/pauls-view-of-jesus-as-an-angel-for-members/

    There he made a recent blog entry where he argues that Paul viewed Jesus to be an angel according to Galations 4:14.

    "Even though my bodily condition was a test for you, you did not mock or despise me, but you received me as an angel of God, as Jesus Christ."

    To preview his argument, he writes:

    " I had always simply read the verse to say that the Galatians had received Paul in his infirm state the way they would have received an angelic visitor, or even Christ himself. But in fact the grammar of the Greek is suggesting something quite different. As the Gieschen has argued, and has now been affirmed in a book on Christ as an angel by New Testament specialist Susan Garrett, the verse is not saying that the Galatians received Paul as an angel or as Christ; it is saying that they received him as they would an angel, such as Christ. By clear implication, then, Christ is an angel.

    As I indicated, the reason for reading the verse this way has to do with the Greek grammar. When Paul uses the construction “but as … as” he is not contrasting two things; he is stating that the two things are the same thing. We know this because Paul uses this grammatical construction in a couple of other places in his writings, and the meaning in these cases is unambiguous. For example, in 1 Corinthians 3:1 Paul says this: “Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ.” The last bit “but as…as” indicates two identifying features of the recipients of Paul’s letter: they are fleshly people and they are infants in Christ. These are not two contrasting statements; they modify each other. The same can be said of Paul’s comments in 2 Cor. 2:17, which also has this grammatical feature."

    Of course he continues to add to this argument on his blog site. Anyways, I was very surprised that Bart, along with several other scholars (which he mentions) are in agreement that Jesus was a Pre-existent angel according to Paul.

  • sir82
    sir82

    It would be the height of hilarity if the WTS ends up quoting from this book to bolster their anti-trinitarian views.

    Ehrman's books positively skewer the idea of "divine inspiration" for the Bible - yet if the WTS finds one little snippet from his book that supports their theology, they would have no shame in using it.

    Bet you 2 donuts that, if/when they do use it, they say something like "a prominent scholar writes..." so as not to cause the half-dozen or so remaining thinking JWs to search out his books.

  • Emery
    Emery

    @sir82, that's exactly what I thought as soon as I finished reading it. This will feed their confirmation bias for sure. The Watchtower will still have to reconile the epistle to the Hebrews where there's a detailed argument for Christ being greater than the angels, however. Ehrman agrees that the author of Hebrews was reacting against and correcting an earlier angelic christology, such as the one held by Paul.

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    Interesting. . . Will have to check it out.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Yes I read Ehrman's Did Jesus Exist? recently and his Christology is positively Arian if not JW in fact.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    And I agree with him about Gal 4:14 as I argued here.

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/239787/1/Jesus3dThe-archangel-Michael

    it is one of the best scriptures for showing Paul's angel Christology.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Bart Ehrmann is impressive but I want to see what more constrained academics think. Very intriguing. In my opinion, I think there had to be small steps between a Jewish view of Jesus, such as James and Peter, and Paul's expanded view. Jesus could be an angelic form of God. It does not preclude God. I always found it strange, though, that Paul the consumate Jews suddenly embraces Jesus as God. The staging is too drastic for me. What do you think? You, not Bart.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    Bart Ehrman's right on the money with that, but ironically he is also on the money on how and why the Bible can't be trusted. He has to be the most intellectually honest Bible scholar out there.

  • ÁrbolesdeArabia
    ÁrbolesdeArabia

    Dr. Bart Ehrman is a best selling author because he knows how to work the crowds and touches on the sensitive topics once considered too sacred to touch. What do I think about Paul's view of Jesus Christ? There is no doubt Paul knew all the accounts the other Gospel writers wrote about Jesus Christ, one interesting area to ponder is to think about how many people brought demon possessed people to be cleaned by God's Son Jesus Christ. In Hollywood, we often see the demons with huge amounts of power while the simpleton priests are battling the demons who curse the person trying to do a exorcism. The reality to those who believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Most High Living God is much different.

    Paul knew Mark, Matthew and Luke's accounts of the power Jesus Christ had over the unclean spirits. St. Paul was given different gifts including the authority to expel the unclean spirits under the name of "Jesus the Nazarene, The Messiah". The book of Daniel speaks of the angel Gabriel being stuck for forty days until the Arch Angel Micheal removed the Prince of Persia chains holding back Gabriel from delivering the message to Daniel and answer his prayers. Compare the power that Jesus of Nazareth to the angels who were hindered by the demons, "Legion" in the following scripture could have been ten to ten thousand if we use a Roman Legion average soldier count.

    "Luke 8:

    Jesus Heals a Demon-Possessed Man

    26 So they arrived in the region of the Gerasenes,[ c ] across the lake from Galilee. 27 As Jesus was climbing out of the boat, a man who was possessed by demons came out to meet him. For a long time he had been homeless and naked, living in a cemetery outside the town.

    28 As soon as he saw Jesus, he shrieked and fell down in front of him. Then he screamed, "Why are you interfering with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Please, I beg you, don't torture me!" 29 For Jesus had already commanded the evil[ d ] spirit to come out of him. This spirit had often taken control of the man. Even when he was placed under guard and put in chains and shackles, he simply broke them and rushed out into the wilderness, completely under the demon's power.

    30 Jesus demanded, "What is your name?"

    "Legion," he replied, for he was filled with many demons. 31 The demons kept begging Jesus not to send them into the bottomless pit.[ e ]

    32 There happened to be a large herd of pigs feeding on the hillside nearby, and the demons begged him to let them enter into the pigs.

    So Jesus gave them permission. 33 Then the demons came out of the man and entered the pigs, and the entire herd plunged down the steep hillside into the lake and drowned.

    I find it interesting Jesus allowed the demons to kill off the swine his fellow Jews were raising (against the mosaic law) to sell for profit to people who were not following the Law. This region wanted Jesus out of there as fast as possible, they were terrified of the power of God and Jesus was more than happy to leave since they did not want to hear the Good News.

    These Cowards were terrified Jesus would order them to go to the Abyss or even destroy them. The power Jesus Christ had compared to the angels is beyond our comprehension and I do not think Paul thought Jesus Christ to be a Angel. His words follow the train of thought, Jesus was a creation of incredible power only second to the Father (YHWH). Pauls following words in this various passages don't seem to tell me he thought Jesus was some type of angel, I think Paul knew from his revelations "He speaks of someone he knew who had a vision of the Third Heaven", Dr. Bart is trying to sell books and really, I don't think he cares either way what is true as long as he hits all the shows and sells lots of books. What do you think "Band On The Run" from all Pauls writings?

    I found it interesting Jesus did now allow the demon possessed man to come with him even though he begged Jesus to come and travel with him. Jesus used the man to preach to these weird people and witness to all that region.

    Does Pauls words written here sound like he is talking about a angel?

    GALATIANS 1:

    3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    No Other Gospel

    6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse!

    10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people?If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

    Paul Called by God

    11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

    13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.".

    PHILIPIANS 1:

    3 Every time I think of you, I give thanks to my God. 4 Whenever I pray, I make my requests for all of you with joy, 5 for you have been my partners in spreading the Good News about Christ from the time you first heard it until now. 6 And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

    7 So it is right that I should feel as I do about all of you, for you have a special place in my heart. You share with me the special favor of God, both in my imprisonment and in defending and confirming the truth of the Good News. 8 God knows how much I love you and long for you with the tender compassion of Christ Jesus.

    9 I pray that your love will overflow more and more, and that you will keep on growing in knowledge and understanding. 10 For I want you to understand what really matters, so that you may live pure and blameless lives until the day of Christ's return. 11 May you always be filled with the fruit of your salvation-the righteous character produced in your life by Jesus Christ[b]-for this will bring much glory and praise to God."

    PHILLIPIANS 2:

    "

    Have the Attitude of Christ

    2 Is there any encouragement from belonging to Christ? Any comfort from his love? Any fellowship together in the Spirit? Are your hearts tender and compassionate? 2 Then make me truly happy by agreeing wholeheartedly with each other, loving one another, and working together with one mind and purpose.

    3 Don't be selfish; don't try to impress others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourselves. 4 Don't look out only for your own interests, but take an interest in others, too.

    5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.

    6 Though he was God,[ a ]
    he did not think of equality with God
    as something to cling to.
    7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges[ b ];
    he took the humble position of a slave[ c ]
    and was born as a human being.
    When he appeared in human form,[ d ]
    8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
    and died a criminal's death on a cross.

    9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor
    and gave him the name above all other names,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father
    .

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Ehrman makes a very interesting point about Phil 2:5-11. He says that after his kenosis and suffering on the cross Jesus is said to have been "super-exalted" which means he was given a greater position than he had to start with. How could that be possible if Jesus was already God at the beginning? It therefore makes more sense to consider that Paul viewed Jesus as an angel who was given an even greater position after emptying himself and dying on the cross. If Jesus was God then talk about him being super-exalted makes no sense.

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