I also read something on this board the other day that I found to be an interesting point. If ones are instantly changed in the twinkling of an eye, then obviously there is something that is still living as it makes the transition from physical human to spiritual being. I agree with you Data-dog... I've been pondering on this subject for a while now, and I don't believe our life ends upon our "death".
Maybe I am a little dense, but I just realized...
by DATA-DOG 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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prologos
even in the story of eden concocted by early storytellers,
A&E were naturally, like the animals, in a dying process, vegetarians too.
Only eating once, or continually, of that special tree of life, that was not outlawed by the way, would give them longer life.
WT has said that it would take a miracle to keep the earth& sun in existence fore ever, so its miracles all the way.
and if God has absolute free will, he can suspend the laws of the cosmos and: voila miracles of lefe,sleep death, recreated thoughts in new brains. wow.
but since we dont have the trees of life, we are dying, like the OTHER animals created with us.
spirit life becomes more believable with text support.
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clarity
Data Dog,,,Good thinking here...... just to add to the conversation.....
If,..... they are right about nothing surviving death, then
If,..... god brought you back ....it wouldnt be a resurrection!
Impossible, nothing left to resurrect.
All it could be is a recreation!
So it won't be you walking around ,,,,,, it will only be someone who
may look like you.
Certainly, without your inner personal thoughts,
& musings.
In the minute that you take reading this, take note of
how many thoughts are wizzing thru your mind. How many in a lifetime.
Half finished ideas, terrifying nightmares & on & on. If any of those
thoughts are omitted.....that body won't be you.
It would be more like Dolly ......the cloned sheep!
clarity
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Nathan Natas
Doesn't the WT argue that Sheol is a literal place?
WHAT resides in this literal place?
Does it have a (postal) zip code? Space-Time coordinates?
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DATA-DOG
Clarity,
Exactly, I won't be me. If I cease to exist, then what comes back? A clone that believes it's me??? Being transferred so as not to see death is different. Take Star Trek for example. When you get transported, you are still you on the other side. You are not destroyed, merely deconstructed.
From a scriptural standpoint it makes more sense that Jesus " died " and his spirit went back to the spiritual realm. When he came back he was in a different body at different times. His spirit was the same as before because his disciples recognized who he was when he spoke, even though he appeared in a different form.
The WTBTS likes to say that Jesus ceased to exist, and was recreated. I am not buying it.
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wolfman85
Matthew 10:28
Amplified Bible (AMP)
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be afraid of Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).
I always thought of this Bible text and wonder if literally at death our soul continues to exist in a state of inanimation or asleep , and only God is who deside which of them will be destroyed. Another thing I think is why Jesus himself said:
Luke 23:46 New International Version (NIV)
46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” [a] When he had said this, he breathed his last.
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Crazyguy
Good subject, When one realizes that Rutherford made up the two class system of anointed 144k and everyone else just Jonadab lossers , it really opens up a whole new world with regard to the New Testament and questions.
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tornapart
Another thing I was thinking that the WT doesn't talk about because it might seem to indicate a trinity. John 2:19, 21 where Jesus said HE would raise his body. How could he do this himself? Of course other scriptures show that God raised him. So what is the truth? If the spirit goes back to God but is 'sleeping' then God could awaken the spirit of the person. In Jesus case he could then go on to resurrect his own body. I do believe he raised his physical body as he still had the nail holes, also he raised Lazurus (4 days dead) just a few days beforehand, showing it could be done. When he went to heaven the transformation came just as Paul describes for chosen one during the 'rapture' (1 Thess 4:17; 1 Cor 15:51-53)
So... soul (body+spirit) dies. The spirit goes back to God in a sleeping state. The spirit is awakened by God when he chooses (or by Jesus). The spirit is given a new body (nothing unusual in this as the body we have as an adult is not the one we were born with). This body could be a physical body (as in the case of Lazarus) or it could be a spirit body, an incorruptible, immortal body to live in the spirit realm with God and Christ and angels.
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prologos
all our activities, including our brain/minds alter the environment as we pass through time and leave an unalterable trace, a fossil evidence that recedes into the past,-- but can be retrieved by a being with advanced enough technology, able to dis -entangle it from the total of signals that we look at from other's past events. ( the butterfly setting up a vorice in the Amazon forest that triggers the hurricane north of Mexico).
IF there is a creator, it is easy to believe that he/she has that capacity. There is now no evidence that he/she is acting or has been acting that way. Bible stories might be wishful non-thinking. They are not evidence. If there is a return to life, to consciousness in any form:
We would then have a re-creator, proof that there is a benevolent God.
All the dead are holding their breath.
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man oh man
The second death is the one we must worry about. So the first death is only of the physical body and not the person.