Maybe I am a little dense, but I just realized...

by DATA-DOG 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    The WTBTS teaches that, " the soul that is sinning..will die." This was re-hashed in the What is Truth talk at the DC. So I got to thinking about the WTBTS's doctrine. They made it very clear that Jesus said, " Lazarus is sleeping." So....death is likened to a sleep like state of inactivity. Here's the thing, when you are asleep, you are not dead. There is still activity going on. If GOD's word says that death is like sleep, then that is what it means.

    Follow me so far? The WTBTS also uses a weasel word when talking about immortality. They often say " inherent " immortality. That changes things a bit in my opinion. What about the first humans? Whether you think that is allegory, or factual, even if you belive that God used evolution to make man, there is still something to consider. Where does the Bible say that man was meant to live forever as a physical creature? Nowhere.

    The WTBTS assumes that man was originally created " not dying " because the Bible doesn't say anything about death until the " Forbidden fruit " incident. We don't really know anything, except that GOD said to fill the earth. For the sake of argument let's assume that the WTBTS is right, and ADAM and EVE were real and not an allegory or whatever. They sinned and brought death to themselves and their offspring. Fine.

    So what if they had never sinned? What then? Christ changed everything. He was to set matters straight and break up the works of the Devil, right? So what is the Christian Hope in the scriptures? When your physical life ends you begin a heavenly, spiritual existence. Some would never see death at all. Some would be transformed in the blink of an eye, others would need to wait and carry out their compulsory service like Job.

    Still, the gift that GOD gives is everlasting life by means of Christ Jesus. So perhaps Adam and Eve lost the right to everlasting life beyond the physical through sin, and then Christ regained that for us? Anyone who " died " before Christ just had to wait, in a sleep like state. Sleeping does not mean you cease to exist as the WTBTS says. Jesus says that death is like sleep, a nap. Surely if GOD meant that death was oblivion and you cease to exist then he would have said so.

    I think the WTBTS leaders know that man is " immortal " through the free gift through Christ Jesus. They just use the word " inherent " to throw you off the scent. Not having " inherent " immortality just means that it has to be given to you. According to GOD, it has been!

    So thinking of death as sleeping in the truest sense, really uncomplicates things, especially Christ's resurrection. He did not cease to exist. He did not need to be re-created.

    Anyway, I am just spit-balling here. That death=sleep got me thinking. So did the use of " inherent." Saying that man is not immortal and that man does not have " inherent " immortality are two different things. I think the GB know this and suppress it. After all, how would you continually motivate millions of people to work for free, as the try to gain life on " paradise earth?" The weasel words, the power grabs, the nu-light, the denigrating of anyone who feels they should partake, death being the opposite of life ( sleep is not the opposite of life ), it's all there to keep you in the hamster wheel until the next " generation " takes over.

    Any thoughts?!

    Peace,

    DD

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    They don't believe in free gifts. Don't you remember not celebrating Christmas and birthdays?

    I like your point that perhaps humans were created to die. It makes more sense. The Witnesses place so much emphasis on earth. Perhaps their imaginations are sterile. There is so much Witness discussion about Paradise and little about what being before the throne of the Lamb means. My aunt picked out her favorite house for post-Armageddon residence. They talked about having a pet lion or tiger. Why don't we hear heavenly details? Certainly, the GB will be in heaven. Right.

  • tornapart
    tornapart

    I'd been thinking along those lines myself yesterday DD. I was thinking about the soul. When a person dies the body is still there but 'something' is missing, it's gone. The bible say in many places that the spirit (that 'something' that is missing?) goes back to God. Of course the WT says it's just the breath of life but it seems like it's much more than that to me. When that spirit goes back to God is it just in a 'sleeping' state awaiting resurrection? When a resurrection occurs the 'spirit' is united with a new body? Whether an earthly body or heavenly body, who knows. Just some musings on my part.

  • ballistic
    ballistic

    There are two sub-texts to your post, what the Genesis writers intention was, and what the WTBTS interpretation of it was. The Genesis writer was trying to explain our position in relation to God, who lives forever, and the animals who die. And we lost our god-likeness and became like animals (dying) due to our own folly. The idea, "what if they had never sinned?", is just hypothetical, because they weren't real people, but actually people used to explain how they did sin and it was mankind themselves who caused us to toil and have such a difficult life and ultimately die.

  • gingerbread
    gingerbread

    Research Adventist's "Soul Sleep."

    Charles T. Russell borrowed this doctrine and it's been part of Bible Student and JW theology ever since!

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    Soul Sleep is in fact the ONLY doctrine that JWs still accept from Russell's time! And, as gingerbread correctly observed, he stole that from the Adventists.

    While JWs currently still teach the Gentile Times ended in 1914, this meant something completely different to ol' Charlie T. Russell.

  • PaintedToeNail
    PaintedToeNail

    I have had this type of discussion with my hubby. It seems that we were meant to die. Every other living thing on earth has died or is in a dying state, from dinosaurs to plants, Adam and Eve. It is just the cirlce of life. It doesn't freak me out anymore. Acceptance is freeing.

  • prologos
    prologos

    data dog I like the way you weave all the wt catch phrases into you questions! if--.

    inherent immortality is used in wt speak only to mean the father, since the son RECEIVED it it upon "his being brought to life in the spirit"

    what puzzles me is wt saying that jesus was speaking to those with an earthly hope / understanding Israelites at Luke 20:36 : "--can not die anymore for they are like angels--"

    clearly, angels, satan demons will die ?

    I am puzzeld about this wt teaching, not about the whole spinning process, for it might be a discussing an illusionary entity, the unfailing bible story, talking snake etal.

    PTN: right. prey (all) animal flee to escape death, we invent religion, redemption to ease the death thouights pain.

    I hope animals get a big dose of morphine with the adrenalin, to make it euthanasia.

    for us, "religion is the opiate of the people" K.Marx /Y. Lenin.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Well, IF..the WTBTS says that Jesus' words are truth, then they should believe what he says about death. Jesus likened death to sleep, not lifelessness or oblivion. The WTBTS teaches that the GB will receive immortality, but the rank and file great crowd of [ other sheep ] will not. So it seems that this teaching of ceasing to be is just another subtle controlling measure, a way to strengthen the hierarchy.

    The Bible says that Christians will pass over from death to life. A seed must die to transform. We all know that a seed does not really die, if a seed dies you would never have a plant. The seed is still living. It's just a good illustration of physical death to spiritual life.

    Also, the Bible says that Man came to be a living soul. How? God made a body and gave it a spirit. Body+Spirit=Soul. You could " die " and your spirit could be instantly transfered to a spiritual body. You would still be a soul.

    I think the Adventists were more correct than the WTBTS is today.

    http://carm.org/soul-sleep

  • Darth Rutherford
    Darth Rutherford

    Great subject, Data-Dog, and you bring out some very logical points! Interestingly, I was having a similar conversation about this same subject last weekend. I said the same thing... the Bible never actually says Adam and Eve would live forever -only WT says that.

    From a scientific point of view... everything in this universe wears out, decays, or eventually dies. From atoms to stars... everything eventually decays and comes to an end. Do we actually believe that we will outlive this physical universe -when we are made out of the same "stuff"? That's crazy! WT teaches man will live forever... forever means living beyond the atoms that make up our body. Forever means living beyond our own star and our Milky Way galaxy. Forever means outliving the physical universe! I mean, our teeth will wear out within a couple of centuries... have you ever seen an older person with worn teeth? We're not designed to grow new teeth are we?!

    I do believe in a Creator; however, my thinking has evolved considerably. Truth MUST be able to reconcile with the facts of the physical universe, and I see no evidence of anything in the universe literally lasting forever. We definitely are not designed to last forever either -at least in our current state. But, as spiritual beings who are not bound by the physics of this universe, maybe "everlasting life" is the rule -not the exception.

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