Some thoughts on Mark 13

by JWB 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Seraphim23

  That’s not quite true Este.

  Mark 14: 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

  Caiaphas must have seen this while alive. So however this `coming in the clouds` is to be interpreted must take that into account.

  Later we read in Acts 7: 54:

  When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

  57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.

  So this seems very much like Jesus in the clouds to me. However it is also a Jewish idiom this `coming in the clouds` to mean judgement, as with a storm. I cannot see any reason to extrapolate this to be an event 2000 years later when it is all there to see 2000 years ago, give or take.
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  Bobcat

  JWB:

  I found your reference to Josephus as well as a number of other references in a footnote in the BECNT-Luke commentary (Vol II p. 1667). It says:

  22. Josephus records that when the temple burned, a bright starresembling a sword stood over the city and that comets were visible for a year; Jewish War 6.5.1-3 §§274-89, esp. §§288-89; Manson 1949: 326; Fitzmyer 1985: 1337; Plummer 1896: 479. Note also Tacitus, History 5.13; 2 Macc. 5:2-3; Nolland 1993b:992.

  Take Care
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  mP

  Lars

  Okay, I'm just going to be blunt here.

  Luke confirms that the destruction of Jerusalem would occur "before" the signs of his presence and 2nd coming. I'll just quote part of that:

  mP:

  Luke was writing about Josephus' Messiah who came in 70AD. HIs kingdom did exist, he did save the jews by killing the rebellion. The job was finished by his son.
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  JWB

  Sorry, I've only just come back to look at this thread and wasn't aware of some of the more recent posts.
  
  A note on Larsinger58's comment: "Luke confirms that the destruction of Jerusalem would occur 'before' the signs of his presence and 2nd coming."
  
  Verse 20 of Luke 21 says, "Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near."
  
  So, the "before all these things" refers to the things that would happen before the "desolating of her [Jerusalem]" which would by then have "drawn near". I disagree that they were "asking about Christ's presence as well as when the destruction of Jerusalem would take place".
  
  The reason for choosing to look at Mark's account is because he does not mention any "presence" by which might seem to extend the events prophesied beyond the fall of Jerusalem. In Mark, the answer to Jesus' statements concerning the city, revolve around that and that alone, as no other subject comes into view. This being the case, then all "signs" spoken of by him must relate only to the fall of Jerusalem, because this was the subject under discussion.
  
  In Luke, Jesus talks about the persecution that would come upon his first century followers before the end of the (Jewish) "the system of things". That he was was addressing his words to those disciples he was speaking to is evident from his use of the plural pronoun 'you'. The events he spoke about would affect them personally. The book of Acts gives examples of persecution of Jesus' disciples, before the 'signs' warning of the approach of the fall of Jerusalem.
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  Bobcat

  JWB:

  In reference to 1st century fulfillment of Mk 13, check my post # 855 on this thread. Although it is based on Matthew 24, it should be just as applicable to Mark 13.

  It also has a link back to this thread in the discussion about "the sign of the son of man."

  Take Care
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  JWB

  Some further notes:
  
  The 'seven times of Daniel' has no bearing on the prophecies of Jesus, because they were fulfilled in Nebuchadnezzar. Any 'second fulfillment' is purely a speculative extra-biblical doctrine.
  
  "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes." - Matthew 10:23 (NASB)
  
  Mark 13:24-27, 29-30:
  
  "But in those days, after the tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT. AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven." "Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
  
  Ezekiel 32:7-8 (NASB), concerning Egypt:
  
  "'And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I WILL COVER THE SUN WITH A CLOUD, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you, and will set darkness on your land,' Declares the Lord God."
  
  In Isaiah 13:9-11 (NASB), concerning the laying to waste of Babylon:
  
  "Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, cruel, with fury and burning anger, to make the land a desolation; and He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; THE SUN WILL BE DARK WHEN IT RISES AND THE MOON WILL NOT SHED ITS LIGHT. Thus I will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud and abase the haughtiness of the ruthless."
  
  Extract from Barnes Notes on verse 10:
  
  "This verse cannot be understood literally, but is a metaphorical representation of the calamities that were coming upon Babylon. The meaning of the figure evidently is, that those calamiities would be such as would be appropriately denoted by the sudden extinguishment of the stars, the sun, and the moon. As nothing would tend more to anarchy, distress, and ruin, than thus to have all the lights of heaven suddenly and forever quenched, this was an apt and forcible representation of the awful calamities that were coming upon the people. Darkness and night, in the Scriptures, are often the emblem of calamity and distress (see the note at Matthew 24:29). The revolutions and destructions of kingdoms and nations are often represented in the Scriptures under this image."
  
  Extract from Barnes Notes on verse 11:
  
  "By the 'world' here is evidently meant the Babylonian empire, in the same way as 'all the world' in Luke 2:1, means Judea; and in Acts 11:28, means the Roman empire. Babylonia, or Chaldea, was the most mighty empire then on earth, and might be said to comprehend the whole world."
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  JWB

  Bobcat, I've followed your link and will be reading it with interest.
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  JWB

  Bobcat, a very interesting post you made in the other thread. My research these days is without the need to prove some religious belief. On this particular subject, my intention is to look at what Jesus is said to have spoken and what the early Christians expected to happen in their lifetime. Whether or not those expectations were met in some way or another is not an issue to me. What I mean is that I have no religious pre-supposition to try to force the scriptures to uphold a cherished belief. It is my understanding from what the Christian scriptures say in general that the disciples were in great anticipation of the the 'return' of Jesus.
  
  For example, we know that Jesus said concerning 'the end', that "even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door." At James 5:9, the writer counsels first century Christians: "Do not complain brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."