SOME THOUGHTS ON MARK 13
I decided to look again at the so-called 'signs of the times' from the perspective of Mark's gospel. Chapter 13 sets the scene. As Jesus' company goes out of the temple at Jerusalem, one of his disciples praises the wonderful stones and buildings. Jesus then makes the remarkable statement that these buildings will be torn down without a stone left upon a stone. Later on, while on the Mount of Olives, four of his disciples speak to him privately about what he said earlier. This is what they asked:
"Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?"
Now, just think for a moment about the actual question. The context of the question has to do with the destruction of Jerusalem, there is no other topic under consideration here. They ask two things about the destruction of Jerusalem, the first concerning the general time period, and the second concerning any sign that would precede this to give warning of its approach. The lengthy answer Jesus gives shows that this matter concerns them, not some far off future generation.
One sign he gives of the coming destruction is the imposition of the "abomination of desolation" (the Roman army), a very real event which should serve as a warning for those in Judea to flee to the mountains.
Another sign is that 'they' will see the "Son of Man coming in clouds with great glory". Who are 'they'? If we move on to the next chapter (14) in verse 62, we have Jesus telling those present at his trial that 'you' (plural form) will see the "Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven." So he indicates here that his coming in the clouds concerns the people of the day, and again not some far off future generation. In my latest research I found these interesting observations by Jewish historian Josephus when he was writing about the events of the Roman seige of Jerusalem (Wars 6.5.3):
"Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year."
"[O]n the twenty-first day of the month Artemisius, a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would see to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about the clouds, and surrounding the cities. Moreover at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, 'Let us remove hence.'"
These quotes are given here for their educational value, not to try to prove that this was the fulfillment of Jesus' 'clouds' sign. However, this is the only historical evidence I've come across of any type of supernatural experiences around about the time of Jerusalem's fall.
Another aspect of Jesus prophecy concerned the preaching of the gospel. I find it interesting what the Watch Tower Society has to say on this matter:
"About 60-61 C.E., Paul reported in his letter to the Colossians that the good news was 'bearing fruit and increasing in all the world' and had been 'preached in all creation that is under heaven.' (Col. 1:5, 6, 23) The early Christians had been obedient to the Word, and holy spirit had empowered them to accomplish a worldwide preaching work before the end of the Jewish system of things in 70 C.E. A seemingly impossible task had been completed. How encouraging it was for those faithful Christian workers to hear reports of what was being accomplished!" - Paragraph 2, page 84 of the WTS's publication "Organized To Do Jehovah's Will"
Even the WTS accepts that Jesus had in mind the end of the Jewish system of things. So, the worldwide preaching work was already accomplished in the first century! Maybe JWs who find 'door to door' work such a bind should point that out to their local elders.
Of course, we know the WTS likes to use its formulaic 'greater fulfillments' doctrine to make what Jesus said relevant to today, with them of course 'fulfilling' it. But their theological device is actually an extra-biblical one.
Some thoughts on Mark 13
by JWB 17 Replies latest watchtower bible
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JWB
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Fernando
In hindsight only a supremacist doomsday cult would turn/twist the big A into something significant to be feared, and reduce the gospel (of peace) according to Paul to rubble - to be ignored.
(Why does the "true religion" secretly blind its followers to the "Good News" according to Paul, Moses, Isaiah and Psalms?)
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mP
About 60-61 C.E., Paul reported in his letter to the Colossians that the good news was 'bearing fruit and increasing in all the world' and had been 'preached in all creation that is under heaven.' (Col. 1:5, 6, 23) The early Christians had been obedient to the Word, and holy spirit had empowered them to accomplish a worldwide preaching work before the end of the Jewish system of things in 70 C.E. A seemingly impossible task had been completed. How encouraging it was for those faithful Christian workers to hear reports of what was being accomplished!" - Paragraph 2, page 84 of the WTS's publication "Organized To Do Jehovah's Will"
mP:
The world christian does not appear in the earliest bibles. Search codexsinacticus.org for christian its not there.
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Fernando
http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/
Yup, mP, the footnotes in the Aramaic Bible suggest that the disciples never referred to themselves as Christians - instead others gave them a related name.
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Earnest
"the disciples were ...called Christians" (Acts 11:26)
cαυλον και ευρω ηγαγεν ειc αντιο χιαν εγενετο δε αυτοιc και ενιαυτον ολοcυναχθηναι εν τη εκκληcια και διδαξαι οχλον iκα
νον χρηματιcαι τε πρωτωc εν αντιοχια τουc μαθηταc χρηcτιανουc"become [a] Christian" (Acts 26:28)
ο δε αγριππαc προc τον παυλον εν ο λιγω με πιθειc χρηcτιανον ποιηcαι
"suffer as [a] Christian" (1 Peter 4:16)
cκοποc ει δε ωc χρηcτιανοc μη ε cχυνεcθω δοξα ζετω δε τον θν εν τω ονοματι του
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mP
http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/
Yup, mP, the footnotes in the Aramaic Bible suggest that the disciples never referred to themselves as Christians - instead others gave them a related name
mP:
Chrestians has a completely different meaning. Christians with an I means follower of Christ, with an E means a useful one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ#Christians_and_Chrestians
Van Voorst has stated that it was unlikely for Tacitus himself to refer to Christians as Chrestianos i.e. "useful ones" given that he also referred to them as "hated for their shameful acts". [17] Paul Eddy sees no major impact on the authenticity of the passage or its meaning regardless of the use of either term by Tacitus. [23]
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Este
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,25and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.26And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.27And then he will send forth the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth's extremity to heaven's extremity.
No one has seen the Christ coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Therefore it had not been fulfilled in the days of the apostles. So it refers to people alive in the end times....
E.
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Bobcat
JWB:
First, thanks for the reference to Josephus. This is something of interest to me also. And you might be interested in another reference to Josephus in connection with "the sigh of the son of man" on this thread. See my post # 837
Take Care
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mP
bobcat
Check who josephus says was the messiah. Then check the roman friendly messages in the gospels. There are no bad romans in the NT. Jews are blamed for killing christ when they didnt. Pay your taxes, be a good slave. Its pretty obvious who authored the text.
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Larsinger58
Okay, I'm just going to be blunt here.
Luke confirms that the destruction of Jerusalem would occur "before" the signs of his presence and 2nd coming. I'll just quote part of that:
LUKE 21: 10 Then he went on to say to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; 11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.
12 “But before all these things people will lay their hands upon YOU and persecute YOU, delivering YOU up to the synagogues and prisons, YOU being haled before kings and governors for the sake of my name. 13 It will turn out to YOU for a witness. 14 Therefore settle it in YOUR hearts not to rehearse beforehand how to make YOUR defense, 15 for I will give YOU a mouth and wisdom, which all YOUR opposers together will not be able to resist or dispute. 16 Moreover, YOU will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of YOU to death; 17 and YOU will be objects of hatred by all people because of my name. 18 And yet not a hair of YOUR heads will by any means perish. 19 By endurance on YOUR part YOU will acquire YOUR souls.
20 “Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. "So in reality, they were asking about Christ's presence as well as when the destruction of Jerusalem would take place. Jesus talks about a world war, "nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom" beginning the signs of the last generation before his coming. But then he says that BEFORE these things the destruction of Jerusalem would occur.
This is significant since otherwise it would confuscate the chronology that points to the specific year of Jesus' 2nd coming. That is, it would conflict with Daniel's "7 times" prophecy which as interpreted by the WTS and others, would represent 2520 years from the fall of Jersualem to the 2nd coming. This would date the 2nd coming in the 20th Century regardless of what date you think Jerusalem actually fell, 607 BCE, 587 BCE or 529 BCE.
So isolating Mark's reference and ignoring the chronology is the only way to try to claim Jesus was talking about things occurring in association with the destruction of Jerusalem rather than in our day.
But there is a parallel. The "disgusting thing causing desolation" was the Roman army that surrounded Jerusalem, literally in 70 BCE. The parallel that would happen during modern times is when the Nazi Army surrounded the largest settlement of Jews in exile, and thus anti-typical "Jerusalem," which was Warsaw Poland. Thus the one-time event of the "great tribulation" associated with the destruction and extermination of Jews in modern times is a reference to the Nazis who focussed on both Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses.
If you ignore chronology, then you try to date the signs and events to any convenient time you might like. If you include the chronology, though, then the 2nd coming can only happen during the 20th Century. The "7 times" prophecy is just one out of three that requires a specific-year fulfillment for the 2nd coming.
So Jesus spoke of things that would happen approaching his second coming but also things that would happen during his present generation connected with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE. But he clearly indicates this would happen before those events far into the future. Thus the "great tribulation" mentioned by Mark and Matthew is not Armageddon but the HOLOCAUST. Further, the 2nd coming is linked to the fall of Jerusalem by the Babylonians by 2520 years. The year for the 2nd coming is not a matter of flexibility in the Bible.