jnat is right, it is Bible belt lore. I live in the bb and all the religions I am aware of have some kind of end time belief. Some are more involved in it than others. Pentacostal and chruch of christ are notable here for being as eccentric as jws.
U.N turning on Religion...sounds like those nutjob survivalists...never happen!!
by Witness 007 44 Replies latest watchtower bible
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*lost*
rag75
Protestant is a seperate entity all together friend. ( thank God for Henry 8th)
I recall having a discussion with an older Catholic friend a few years back, ( in the heart of a staunch Catholic land at the time )
She said protestants are much better christians than catholics. Also there is the seperation of church and state, schools are secular, not controlled and run by catholic church. Of course there are some catholic schools and mostly people want their kids to attend them, even though they not believers. ( go figure that one, lol, but I would too) In the liberated countries, catholicism is not the beast it once was. But there is still a remnant of it lurking.
If you look at Ireland. The country is still controlled by the church. As are the schools. It is focal in peoples lives and religious ceremonies tied in with schools. It's still way behind over there.
Childrens rights, joke. Woman dies recently as medically she was dying and needed her pregnancy terminated in order for her to survive. she ws told it is a catholic country, they don't do that. It's against the law.
There are very few muslims over there. they are not wanted.
Uk, full of muslims, laws of the land have been changed, shaped and moulded especially for muslims.
Bangladesh, look what's happening there now.
Things are getting worse, not better.
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Witness 007
We dont need the U.N....if North Korea attacked jehovah would send hail stones to destroy the missles.
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Band on the Run
A close friend worked as a UN civil servant. They are the same as a govt. administration but do not answer to any single government but the UN as a whole. They are quasi-diplomats. He converted to Christianity from Judaism. I was shocked to hear that the UN employee newsletter runs regular articles on why the UN is full of cults.
These are relatively educated, sophisticated people who speak many languages. They see inaction on key global issues on a regular basis. Yet cults exist all over the place. I never would have guessed.
Does the UN do anything more than fund social welfare orgs now? I see the true power every place else.
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Bobcat
Actually the idea, in itself, is not so preposterous. Any government will protect its interests before anything or anyone else. And if the person/thing/entity poses enough of a danger, that government will set out to destroy or disassemble the threatening entity.
What's lacking, with regard to the UN versus religion, is motive and opportunity. The UN has no "motive" or reason at the moment. Nor does it have the "opportunity," as in the available power or authority.
Incidentally, the WT's idea is based on a mis-reading of Rev 17:16, 17
(Revelation 17:16, 17) . . .And the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire. 17 For God put [it] into their hearts to carry out his thought, even to carry out [their] one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished.
(One should note that the "[it]" and "[their]" are added by the NWT to complete the WT view, not the Greek text.)
In the verses above, "the ten horns that you saw, and the wild beast, these will hate the harlot"
Both entities 'hate the harlot.'
But "God put into their hearts [the ten horns] to carry out his [God's] thought, . . . by giving their kingdom to the wild beast
God only puts something into the 'ten horns.'
The phrase, "even to carry out one thought," is epexegetic or explanatory. ("Even" is actually Greek kai, literally "and.")
The phrase is explaning the reason God puts something into the "ten horns." He wants them to act in a unified manner. The resulting combine has much more authoritative power.
The thing missing now is the motive. It is supplied by the context of Revelation 16:19:
(Revelation 16:19) And the great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great was remembered in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the anger of his wrath.
The order of listed events is:
1. 'The great city split into three.'
2. 'The falling of the cities of the nations.'
3. 'Babylon the Great handed God's cup of wrath.'
The Society thinks the third item is the same as the first. But they are not. This skews the WT interpretation of what is to take place.
Now notice what the angel tells John in 17:1 -
And one of the seven angels that had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying: "Come, I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters, . . .
The explanation then leads to the end of chapter 17 where the ten horns and wild beast 'hate the harlot.' At some point before 'they hate her,' the ten horns have already "given their power and authority to the wild beast." God has empowered the "wild beast" by unifying the "ten horns" under it.
The missing motive is supplied by the second item in 16:19, by what happens just before 'God hands Babylon the cup of wrath.
Take Care
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*lost*
Bobcat
The great city split into 3 ........ could this possibly be
1. Christianity
2. Islam
3. Judaism
The falling of the cities of the nations
Social/civil unrest ( as we see) the overthrow of present system of governments that have alway had long standing control. Each countries political ruling elite, being overthrown by the peoples in want of good governance.
We have seen overthrowing - Arab Spring etc. Occupy movements, Iraq, Egypt, etc. it seems that every countryis in poitical turmoil now and the citizens are taking to the streets protesting. Demanding change. This also ties in with the ''peace and security'' the peoples averywhere want peace and security.
Poitical upheaval and being overthrown/replaced.
UK - have just been hit with a political bombshell which is rocking the age old system they have there. (the monarch + the church+ the wealthy elite)
UKIP - have shot up from obscurity into the realms of real political threat to the system. the people's are rebellion, they have had enough, they want changes. (Queens address to the commons yesterday)
Thoughts please wise one.
much love
Ps, have you heard from QC lately, haven't seen him here in a while
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Bobcat
I don't know about being 'wise,' but regarding "the great city" of Revelation 16:19a:
There are two 'great cities' in Revelation.
11:8 . . . the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sod′om and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled. . .
17:18 . . . And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."
11:8 refers, obstensibly, to Jerusalem or something that resembles Jerusalem in some way.
17:18 refers unquestionably to "Babylon the Great."
All the other references to "the great city" are after-the-fact type references. For example, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21 all refer to Babylon the Great, as confirmed by the context. In these verses, "the great city" is referred to without identifying it, because the preceding context (17:18) made the identification explicit.
16:19a is also an after-the-fact type of reference: "The great city is split . . ." The angel telling this to John is expecting John to already know what he means by "the great city." And at this point in the prophecy, the only identified "great city" was the one in 11:8.
The immediate context also requires "the great city" to be something different from "Babylon the Great." Otherwise there is no reason for the statement about "Babylon the Great" in 16:19 if "the great city is referring to the same thing.
The "cities of the nations" also forms a contrasting pairing with "the great city," IF "the great city" refers to Jerusalem. But not so if Babylon is that "great city," as Babylon IS one of the 'cities of the nations.'
Finally, the phrase, "split into three parts" (literally, "became into three parts") is an allusion to Ezekiel chapter 5. In Ezekiel 5 this is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. Ezekiel is told to cut his hair and then divide the hair into three parts. The hair, representing the people of Jerusalem, are those who were to perish or be chased after by the sword. Ezekiel was also told to save a few hairs to represent the few who would survive the catastrophe. (This pattern, by the way, repeated itself in 70 AD. Literal Jerusalem was again 'split into three parts,' with only a few (Jewish Christians) surviving.
As for what this "great city" represents, consider who Jesus was talking about in Matthew 7:21-23 when "that day" arrives. ("Lord, Lord" which is what is called a 'double vocative,' represents in the context of Matthew 7:21-23, a note of desperation.)
(Incidentally, KJV Revelation 14:8 also has "that great city," but only the Received Text has this. All the major Greek texts do not have "great city" there.)
Hope this gives you something to chew on.
Take Care
PS
As for what causes the 'cities of the nations to fall,' the text is unspecific. The reaction of the "ten horns and the wild beast" in 'hating the harlot' afterwards indicates that they see the "harlot" as responsible in some manner.
I have ideas about what happens, but they are little more than speculation. An engineered bioweapon would likely begin showing up in cities first and have the ability to cause great chaos. (I used to have a US govt study on this bookmarked. I might still have somewhere. They expect such a scenario has the capability of causing great social upheaval, temporarily at least.) The limited use of nukes might also cause widespread chaos in cities world wide.
According to the prophecy, the nations survive whatever happens intact with enough organization to be able to liquidate the harlot and then take on Jesus and the heavenly armies as described in chapter 19. So that would be a limiting factor with regard to 'the falling of the cities of the nations.'
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sir82
The UN doesn't have the power to overthrow the corner meth house.
And they are going to attack and destroy a so-called "world empire of false religion"?
Uh-yup. That'll happen. Any day now.
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Vidiot
Witness007 – “How did this nonsense get into Watchtower lore with the whole U.N. thing?”
You’re definitely not the first person to ask this here, and I can field this one with the same basic explanation I've given before:
These ideas have their origins in mid-20th Century Right-Wing conspiracy theory; the John Birch Society, etc.
Because many of the original UN Charter's draftees were Europeans with Soviet connections, the American authoritarian Right has always been suspicious of it; with the UN's involvement in establishing the State of Isreal, it took on a Biblical tone (many right-wingers already had affiliations with some of the more militant Christian groups), which led to hack born-again writer Hal Lindsay penning The Late, Great Planet Earth, a quasi-prophetic nonfiction book which predicted a totalitarian "One World Government" evolving out of the UN (suggesting that "godless communists" had helped engineer the UN's creation as tools of the Antichrist in order to destroy decent God-Fearing Americans).
Back when Millerite-at-heart and all-around WT oracle Fred Franz was fine-tuning the WTS's eschatology, there was a lot more cross-pollinization of ideas between the various apocalyptic millennialist groups; these ideas trickled their way in, and became incorporated (albeit in a modified and heavily-JW-centric form) into his interpretation of the Book of Revelation.
Say what you will about the man, but Franz had actual writing talent and a genuine knack for marrying Russel and Rutherford's cosmology with (what was at the time) current events viewed through the skewed lens of conservative American paranoia. I suspect that's why it seemed genuinely plausible at the time...
Freddy's long dead now, though, and even more importantly, he left no protégé...
As a result, WT "canon" is now stuck with a decades-old End-Times script containing bad guys who, at present, are essentially powerless (the UN) or remain an unknown (the "King of the North", since the Soviet Union unexpectedly collapsed 20-ish years ago, and the role has never been recast), and global Black-Swan-type events that seem damn near impossible (organized religion on the verge of violent overthrow by said bad guys) in a world where the democratic process - as flawed as it is - and basic human rights (including freedom of religion) annoyingly persist in spreading despite everyone's best efforts, as opposed to a tyrannical global government OR an anarchy-ridden dystopia...