Where to begin?

by DATA-DOG 24 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Sulla

  The stress, it seems to me, is that there is a very high probability that you don't actually have a family. Instead, what you have are people who have a close relationship with you contingent on you remaining a JW.

  But maybe not. And that's why people lose sleep.

  So, let's name this thing: you want to do something very, very stupid because you don't like living a lie. Look, what's the best that could happen?

  Seems to me, the best possible outcome is that everybody nods politely, investigates the seriousness of your views, suggests you wait on Jehovah, and marks you as weak. You get to live a slightly smaller lie.

  And for what? Well, you just made life much harder for your kids, if you have them. Social status in the JWs is highly dependent on the family bloodlines -- the children of the guys who have high profiles (public talks, assembly parts, positions of influence) have better social prospects. They are better connected for their own social standing, for jobs, for wives/husbands. You signal that you are weak, and they bear a very real cost.

  Your wife is also going to pay. The social standing for her is just as contingent on your position -- Pioneer sisters with weak or unbelieving husbands are spinsters: they don't exist, socially. And since we don't know how you wife will react to your declaration of weakness, we don't know if she will figure that her prospects are better off without you. Ask punkofnice about that.

  My take: there is not enough of an upside to even consider having that conversation.
• 

  AndDontCallMeShirley

  DATA-DOG: Are there any topics that you would consider to be the least controversial?

  ADCMS: If you talk to anyone this may be the best tactic. However, remember that you are dealing with a mind that is convinced there is only one true religion, Jehovah's Witnesses, and only the governing body speaks truth. Any attempt to quesion that authority will be met with inpenetrable resistance. It is astounding what excuses a JW will come up with in order to justify the absurd actions or teachings that the WT is guilty of.

  I had one friend, an Elder, actually tell me that ever-changing doctrines are PROOF that this is the true religion! I asked him, "but if something is true, it doesn't need to change, nor can it. If it does change then it was not true in the first place". That reasoning fell on deaf ears. When I pointed out major changes in doctrines from WT literature, his only comment was, "why are you looking through older literature? You cannot have right motives for doing that!" He followed that up with, "you canot question the governing body. They know so much more than us. You are being disloyal to the Org". So, even when you use WT literature to prove your point, the JW mind will resist any thought that may lead them to asking reasonable questions about the men and Organization they worship.

  I would suggest this: find out what "pushes their buttons". I have a friend who was unaffected when I showed him how weak the WT's basis is for their ban on blood transfusions, and how absurd the "fractions" teaching is. He couldn't care less. However, my friend hates lying more than anything!! When I showed him that the Reasoning book misrepresented (lied) in their information on the Cross, he had a fit! When he confirmed what I told him by doing more research, this caused him to ask, "if the Watchtower lied about this, what else have they lied about?" That started his awakening process.

  I'll conclude by showing a few quotes from WT literature. Of course, the WT hypocritically never sees how their counsel applies first to themselves; these quotes are designed to get non-JWs to examine THEIR religion, but are ignored when a JW wants to examine the Watchtower Society. The Point is, if something is true, scrutiny should be welcomed because it will only verify truth. If scrutiny is feared and prohibited then there's usually something to hide.

  "We need to examine

  "Every man should be persuaded in his own mind and no man should permit himself to be deterred from examining a question based upon the Bible because a clergyman or any one else makes the unsupported assertion that it is dangerous or unworthy of consideration. Error always seeks the dark, while truth is always enhanced by the light. Error never desires to be investigated. Light always courts a thorough and complete investigation. - "Millions Now Living Will Never Die", page 18.

  ***

  w585/1p.261IsYourReligiontheRightOne?***

  "Your religion should have solid basis, not on religious leaders, not on religious systems, but on God’s Word, the Bible

  ... If you learn that your religion is teaching what is not right, you should let go of that religion...

  How can you tell whether your religion is the right one or not? A simple way of telling is to expose it to a test of God’s Word. If your religion is not in accord with what the Bible teaches, then it is not in harmony with truth. It is not right.. It is important, then, that you "keep testing whether you are in the faith," as Paul declared. Keep checking to see whether the things you believe are in keeping with God’s Word. But the question is, Are you willing to put your religion through such a test? There is nothing to fear, because if you have the right religion you can only be reassured by the examination. And if what you believe is not in keeping with the Bible, then you should welcome the truth....

  w66 3/1p.132 ShouldFalsehoodandCorruptionBeExposed?

  So, then, when religious leaders and organizations of Christendom misrepresent God’s Word by teaching traditions of men, is it wrong to expose their false doctrines? When they claim to be following Christ and yet mix in worldly politics, is it a bad thing to publicize that their actions are unchristian and condemned by God? Should the truth be suppressed because it exposes falsehood and corruption? Never! Jesus never hesitated to speak the truth......

  Therefore, how will you respond when pointed statements are made about false religious teachings and corrupt practices? Will you immediately condemn the person or organization making the exposé? Do you feel it is all right to teach lies and misrepresent God’s Word, but wrong to expose the error? Contrary to what some may think, it is not unkind and unloving to lay bare falsehood and corruption.

  not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination." —The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, 1968, p. 13
• 

  QC

  @DD

  If you have strong family attachments and they don't agree with your position, you might be opening a can of worms, unnecessary grief. I would fade until your family is on the same page. That might come sooner than you think.

  FYI, I went to a KH (Spanish) for the memorial because I wanted to experience the festivity. The importance of partaking made me feel great. It was sad though to see so many people clueless. I was the only one partaking out of about 250.

  Everyone seemed like tourist passing through a museum, unfriendly. Strange.
• 

  breakfast of champions

  causing divisions and was a disfellowshipping offense

  MOSHE's comment just struck me as funny. Those very words spoken to me about 20 or so years ago when I expressed my dismay at how the elders handled a situation in the hall. I should have known better!

  But yes, that's about right. You can have whatever thoughts you want, as long as you keep them to yourself.
• 

  dazed but not confused

  Best of luck to you Data Dog. If my wife was a totally brainwashed drone, I don't know where we'd be.
• 

  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  Interesting scenario. Each of our families and circumstances are unique, so it's hard to predict. But thinking about "what if" is a good mental exercise that I used a lot before I ever started speaking up.

  I'm not married with kids, but I did want to keep most of my family and avoid confrontation. So I first worked on strengthening the family bonds outside of all the WT crap, and open up the bonds of communication where they also felt free to speak openly about their doubts. All of these conversations started one-on-one, so there were no "witnesses". And I've gotten really good at talking about TTATT with a matter-of-fact, "oh, I thought you already knew that (about blood, 607, child molestation, etc.) by now", delivery. Actually, the only time I've spoken frankly to more than one person was when it was both my parents. At that point, there was enough foundation already laid that they stated their challenges (God has always used an earthly organization) which I calmly addressed with explanations I'd rehearsed many times in my head (looking at the Bible, we see that his "earthly organizations" such as the priesthood, kingship, and first century congregation all became wicked and turned nations away from god, so individuals need to be responsible and not blindly follow some "organization"). And the conversation included points that my parents don't agree with WT on, like "higher education" and child molestation. Then the conversation turned to other nonJW subjects. Although it seemed rather non-eventful, it was a big deal for me, proving that my parents were still mine, despite WT programming.

  I have no doubt that if I would have expressed these things to the BoE, I would have been dfd. But when presenting certain subjects with undeniable proof to individuals, what are they going to do? If they trot off to the elders reporting these questions, they'll open themselves up to being labeled "apostate" too.
• 

  leaving_quietly

  I have been also losing sleep over all of this. I personally wouldn't say "within the next six months". Maybe "in the future".
• 

  Ding

  Let's just say that Moshe was basically told in strong language to drop it- it was the WT's way or the highway for me.

  Rule #1: The GB is always right.

  Rule #2: When the GB gets "new light," see Rule #1.
• 

  flipper

  DATA-DOG- I wouldn't admit ANYTHING in front of elders on a shepherding call if 2 of them are there visiting you and your family. If you feel you can trust your family that lives with you or your JW family to keep confidential any " doubts " you have as you CAREFULLY disclose those doubts then you may be able to reveal those doubts to family members. That being said- you better be dAMN well sure that none of those JW family members won't report it to the elders thus eliciting a " shepherding call " from said elders.

  Here's the deal- it's best for us not to fool or deceive ourselves into thinking our JW family is more committed and attached to US than they are the WT organization. I've found that out the hard way with my adult JW daughters as they hold my doubts against me from what I spoke to them 6 or 7 years ago. They are like damned elephants- don't forget or forgive a thing. So unless you are DEAD sure your JW relatives aren't psycho-fanatical Witnesses who would demand you meet with elders a word of advice- if you desire your relationships to continue with your JW relatives just keep it quiet with your doubts. Otherwise expect a fallout of some sort. It might not happen with some of your JW relatives, but it might happen with other more fanatic relatives. It's been a mixed bag for me. I can talk to my older JW parents about my doubts, but I cannot talk with my ex-Bethel older brother or sister about my doubts as they'll use it against me. Same with my daughters .

  So it's best to slow down, and carefully consider your moves and next step. Just my 2 cents
• 

  Dismissing servant

  Data-dog: Listen to Billy and Flipper. Never try to push TTATT to someone. It always strikes back. Their "apostate alarms" will get off in a short while.

  Personally I think it's better to question the bible than the WT interpretation. The bible itself isn't so emotially loaded as the WT dogma are.But act carefully.

  Nevertheless, can you show them that the bible is just plain bullsh*t, the watchtower dogma falls apart by themselves.