The WT answer to that, Bob_NC, is that most of those early Christians weren't real Christians. Christianity was "corrupted" really early on, remember? They've specifically said in the literature that just because some died a martyr's death, they weren't automatically good Christians. Now, Rutherford, there was a real Christian (wait, did he claim to be of the anointed? I can't recall ever seeing that stated anywhere).
Why do they assume they were anointed?
by Sheep2slaughter 26 Replies latest watchtower bible
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prologos
S2S : This notion of WT man that all early christians were of the "anointed" or "exclusive 144 000 remnant" stems from their mindset that they possess the eternal truth and the spiritual conditions, definitions they imagine exist now, or rather 90 years ago, were also a fact then.
Every time there is a "new light" the COUNT of who was a TRUE christian obviously has to be redone to classify the deseased to theses new, and surely finally true standards .
cutting through all the clutter: if the sealed 144 000 ones are the "anointed" and
1) The sealing, anointing ENDS at the big "A" --(not 1935), and
2) The sealing started at Pentecost 33 or stephens martyrdom, and
3) The 144 000 are sealed OUT OF the 12 tribes of the ISRAEL OF GOD (the Earthly Class) as per Rev.7, then
4) the OS or "Earthly Class" must have existed since Pentecost 33 !!! and therefore
5) it is wrong to say all true Christians EVER were exclusively of the "anointed" 144 000. so we dont have to worry that there were only 80 anointed per year since Christ. among the billions and billions.
of course we are talking only about WT mental constructs here, that includes the talking snake, spare-rib cloning of the first lady, original and subsequent sin and other good stuff.
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Larsinger58
Why do they (the Watchtower Man) assume that first century Christians were all of the anointed class? Is there any support for the notion that they all were anointed?
Many things are fulfilled by JWs, because they are the temple sect that would appear after the "2300 evenings and mornings" (Daniel 8:14).
The two-class system that would exist among Jehovah's witnesses for a time is demonstrated in the prophetic parable of the vineyard workers. Basically, the master hires workers to work for a full day and they receive a "penny" for that day's work. The "penny" represents the call to heaven. Those first hired understood up front they would receive the "penny." This would apply to the first and second-hour workers. But then, when the third-hour workers come in, they are not told they would receive the "penny", but whatever was fair. So from the third-hour workers all the way to the 11th-hour workers, they expected something less than a penny.
A half hour in the bible is 3.5 years, so an hour is 7 years. So the 11 hours of work took place over a period of 77 yeras, from 1914 to 1991. But note when the 3rd-hour workers are being recognized. That would be 21 years from 1914, which means around 1935! 1935, as noted, is the time when the "other sheep" class was officially recognized, a group of those believing they did not have the heavenly calling, but something less, which was the earthly hope.
So the two-class system is definitely prophesied and connected with JWs!
BUT...!!! As some note, it seems confusing that Christ makes a covenant with just some of Christians and not all of them! Well, it turns out ALL have that opportunity for the heavenly calling, that is, the "penny." That is why, once the work is done, during the 12th hour, which would be from 1991-1998, starting with the last to the first, the "other sheep" class are invited into the kingdom. That is, they are paid the penny! Thus even though some of the workers knew in advance they would get the penny, ALL the workers end up being offered the penny. Now the first-hour workers murmur against this, but they still get their penny. They were faithful workers. So the murmuring simply reflects what a surprise understanding this was to them at the last minute. It means the anointed associated with the GB and WTS doctrince would not understand that the "other sheep" would be invited into the kingdom and thus those from both classes will go to heaven.
Now we know the WTS, which is now in spiritual darkness, does not understand this. The WTS has a persecution complex, always being persecuted by someone, so they see themselves as the 11th-hour workers compared to Christendom. They see themselves as coming relatively late into the work during the 20th Century, compared to the earliest workers and older religions, like the Catholics who came into the work much earlier. Thus they see Christendom murmuring against them for having God's favor. But what about the 3rd to the 9th hour workers who also get the "penny"? Who are they? The WTS has no concept for these, since they think they are the only ones who will be getting the penny and who are invited to heaven. But the parable clearly shows that not only do the 3rd through the 11th hour workers get the penny, so does the 1st-hour workers, even though they murmured against the 11th-hour workers! EVERYBODY GETS THE PENNY! THUS EVERYBODY GETS INVITED TO HEAVEN! So how can the WTS be just the 11th-hour workers? It doesn't work! It doesn't work because they don't understand this parable.
Now to add a little context here, the WTS also thinks there are only 144,000 in the heavenly class. But per Isa. 6:13, which speaks of tree that is cut down but where the root remains, the root makes up 10% of the entire tree. Thus even though the Jews did get punished and lots seats in the kingdom for their unfaithfulness, a small remnant of them would still fulfill the Abrahamic promise of a kingdom of priests based on the 12 tribes of Israel. Thus the 144,000 represent that Jewish root of natural Jews who fulfill the kingdom. Thus if the root of 144K is 10% of the entire tree, then the gentiles must make up the other 90%, which is 1,296,000. That means the total number in the kingdom is 1,440,000!
Plus, per the parable of the vineyard workers, it would appear that at least among JWs, many don't understand their heavenly calling until after 1991, with those of the "anointed" being the earliest witnesses from 1914 to 1928, basically, with the "other sheep" appearing by the third hour, officially recognized in 1935.
But now you might ask, why then since 1991 have we not seen more partakers? Well, it turns out not everybody qualifies to get into the kingdom. You have to be awake! Remember, when the call goes out about the wedding feast taking place, many have excuses and beg off. So many that were invited end up not showing up and their places are taken by others, outsiders. So while technically all the "other sheep" were eligible for the kingdom after 1991, if they did not answer the call, they did not get anointed.
But of very important note, those that did get anointed also understood that Christ's second coming did not occur 1914, but in 1992. So those new ones anointed into the kingdom would be part of the "wise virgins" class and they would not share this with the foolish virgins class. They would also understand that Passover of 1993 would be the first and the LAST official Memorial celebration upon Christ's return. After all, the Memorial is only to be kept until Christ returns! After he retuns, then it is not necessary to keep the Memorial of his absence! That has always been something witnesses were not able to answer, which is: IF CHRIST ARRIVED IN 1914, WHY ARE YOU STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL?
Turns out since they got the date wrong, it was okay until Passover of 1993 to still celebrate the Memorial. But after that, there is no need. So even though we see some increase in the elect since 1991, those who understand fully what is going on, do not celebrate the Memorial, because they know Christ returned in 1992 and it is no longer necessary.
Now, again, keep in mind that the "wise virgins" don't give any of their oil to the "foolish virgins." That means they are keeping their knowledge to themselves. Discovering that Christ arrived in 1992 is something they must find out on their own. So that means there are some in the congregation who are keeping a secret. They know the truth, they know the WTS is the "false prophet" and the "evil slave" but they are not telling the rest of the congregation.
So that means when I go to the Hall, or at least when I did, I knew who were of the elect and who were my followers, whom I sometimes met secretly or passed special information to. So they definitely know I'm the Christ, but they can't tell anyone else. It's all secretive.
Now the WTS clearly knows about these other "secret" anointed ones, which they can't tell about because they don't partake. So they have their spies out trying to determine who is spiritually anointed. But Jehovah hides them, "away from the face of the serpent" so they can't be seen. That's just for those who choose to be or who must pretend to remain active Christians. Others of the anointed, like myself, though, are going in the complete opposite direction of appearing like the "anointed." A clear "chasm" is between those of the secret anointed and those of the public anointed. Part of what separates the two is that those in the secret anointed are not under Law. That means, God has granted that they cannot sin any more. Without law, there is no sin. So sometimes we are requested or required to show we understand this by committing what would have otherwise been a sin. This is part of helping us remain in secret. That may be anything from smoking and doing drugs, to engaging in fornication.
It works too. I've told close friends and relatives I'm the Christ, but they just laugh because most know I'm sexually active. So even if the prophecies make sense and they wonder about the chronology, they still won't think I fulfill those prophecies because they know me too well. How can I tell someone in person who knows me that I'm the Christ, but I can commit fornication if I want to, but they can't since it's still a sin for them? That's too much. So the "chasm" works. It keeps those in the secret world from crossing over to those in the public world:
Luke 16:26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and YOU people, so that those wanting to go over from here to YOU people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.
It's all happening. It's all real. It's all prophesied!
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Rattigan350
I don't see why people find fault with the 'two class system', maybe because they don't understand what the anointing is about.
Saul and David were anointed by oil. That means they were chosen to be kings.
There were 2 classes. The king and the ones who were not king. There could only be one king but in the Christian system there are 144,000 kings and they are anointed by holy spirit to show they were chosen.
The Levites were priests and they were anointed by oil. There were 2 classes. The priests and non-priests. People then learned to deal with it, to get over it if they were not priests. In the Christian system there are 144,000 priests working under Christ as high priest. Today people need to learn to deal with it, to get over it if they are not priests. In the Christian system, those same do both jobs of kings and priests. But why would one want to be one, back then one got more scrutany than the general population, same today. Back then I would rather live a quiet life on the outskirts, the same today.
Larsinger: where do you get this idea
"After all, the Memorial is only to be kept until Christ returns! After he retuns, then it is not necessary to keep the Memorial of his absence! That has always been something witnesses were not able to answer, which is: IF CHRIST ARRIVED IN 1914, WHY ARE YOU STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL?"
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prologos
R 350:
Do we not understand that the ruling as Priest and king is future? in the heavens?
Did not peter reproach the Power hungry or greedy , for having already started to rule with out the apostles?
Was not the first intention of the nation of Israel to have NO KING? royalty only by popular demand?
Was it not the original arrangement to have every Firstborn of EVERY TRIBE & family to be the responsable priest? payment for discrepency in numbers?
Is it not clear that the sealing, anointing by the angels is hidden, even what spiritual tribe you are from is only known to them The angels? if any?
Will not the majority of the Billions of"Christians" (who might have believed in Santa Claus like early bethelites) be resurrected apart from the 144 000? on earth or wherever?
Is not the whole thing symbolic like the snake that talks is symbolic, in other words imaginary, in the mind only?
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Larsinger58
Do we not understand that the ruling as Priest and king is future? in the heavens?
No. It is a misunderstanding that Christ does not return in the flesh. Christ rules with the elect for 1000 years on the earth!
There are several scriptures that confirm this, but one is 1 Thess 4:15-18 where we find a question about just who goes to heaven first? Will it be those who alive when Christ returns? Or will it be those who are resurrected? Here is Paul's answer:
1 Thess 4:15 For this is what we tell YOU by the Lord’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.
Now let's just stop and analyze this. What do we learn from this scripture?
1) For one, everybody goes to heaven at the same time! No one precedes anyone else up to heaven.
2) We know the dead rise FIRST! Then AFTERWARD all together to go heaven.
So what is this saying? It is saying that if those who have died and been resurrected don't get their spiritual bodies until those who are living when Christ returns get theirs so that all together get their spiritual bodies, then the dead who rise must rise back into the flesh!
That is, the first resurrection of the elect who have died in Christ rise first back into the flesh before Christ's return. Then they join those of the elect who are alive when Christ returns, so that everyone is in the flesh at the time of Christ's return. Then, of course, Christ himself also returns in the flesh to rule for 1000 years. After that Satan is destroyed and then JUDGMENT DAY takes place. Then after the last person is judged, then is when the elect, having finished their work as king-priests on the earth, go to heaven with Christ.
There is no way around this. This is yet another misunderstanding (false teaching) the witnesses. That is, that since 1914 those of the "anointed" who die faithfully go straight up to heaven. WRONG! No one goes to heaven before anyone else! Thus they have a complicated and convulted explanation about just when the anointed who survive Armageddon will go to heaven. You know, Armageddon occurs, the 1000 years begin, but some of the anointed are still on the earth? They even said it is possible, being of very old age that some of the anointed just might die from the trauma of Armageddon and go to heaven then, but that didn't mean Jehovah was killing them as punishment! WRONG!
At any rate, 1 Thessalonians along with other scriptures confirm that Christ will be in the flesh at the second coming and will rule with his king-priests, who will also be in the flesh and thus that rule will be hands-on on the earth! But doesn't that make sense? How much more effective would that rule be if all were right there present in the flesh? Otherwise, how do they rule from heaven? Giving inspired dreams to selected "other sheep" elders who do the actual work?
Plus you have other issues. For instance, when Satan is let loose to test the post-millennial population, those rebels are said to "encircle the camp of the holy ones." Now is that literal? Or figurative? That is, how do they encircle the camp of the holy ones if the holy ones are in heaven and they are on the earth?
REV 20:7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma´gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
How can they encircle the beloved city if the holy ones are ruling from heaven? But if the holy ones are on the earth, then the "beloved city" certainly could be a reference to the capital city from which Christ will be ruling. This sounds like this is happening on earth, does it not? I mean they are said to "advance over the breadth of the earth" to get to this beloved city and the camp! So the camp must be on the earth. But what is surprising about this? That is, it is not surprising we have this earthly description because Christ and the elect will actually be on the earth at this time!
I recently attended a church service in which one of my relatives was the minister. Just as a passing question, I asked about the millennium rule of Christ and where it would be? Of course, he thought it would be from heaven. But I asked about Satan being let loose after the 1000 years and where would this be? I was trying to get him to see that there would be people on the earth during the 1000-year reign. But his response was not to deal with it! Very much like witnesses who sniff an "apostate" attack! So some people get one idea in their minds and they hold on to that idea by closing their eyes and not examining anything else that makes them THINK!
The WTS does the identical same thing! Case in point if you ask just how is it that Christ's impalement is at the third hour (9 o'clock) (Mark 15:25) while his trial is not until the sixth hour (12 o'clock)? (John 19:14). Or you ask how is it that it gets dark at the sixth hour after Jesus' impalement, but his trial is not until the sixth hour? The WTS admits they do not know but regardless, it's okay, they know the Bible is true and Christ still died for our sins!
A Seeming Discrepancy. Some have pointed to what appears to be a discrepancy between the statement at Mark 15:25, which says Jesus was impaled at “the third hour,” and that at John 19:14, which indicates that by “about the sixth hour” Jesus’ final trial before Pilate was just ending. John had access to Mark’s account, and he certainly could have repeated the time stated by Mark. Therefore John must have had a reason for stating the hour differently from Mark.
Why the seeming discrepancy? A variety of suggestions have been offered. None of these satisfy all objections. We simply do not have enough information to explain with any certainty the reason for this difference between the accounts. Perhaps Mark’s or John’s reference to the hour was parenthetical, not in chronological order. Whatever the case, one thing is certain: Both writers were inspired by holy spirit.
The synoptic Gospels clearly indicate that by the sixth hour, or 12 noon, Jesus had already been hanging on the stake long enough for the soldiers to cast lots over his garments and for the chief priests, the scribes, the soldiers, and other passersby to speak abusively of him. They also indicate that about 3:00 p.m. Jesus expired. (Mt 27:38-45; Mr 15:24-33; Lu 23:32-44) The truly important thing to remember is that Jesus died for our sins on Nisan 14, 33 C.E.—Mt 27:46-50; Mr 15:34-37; Lu 23:44-46. tYou see, they don't have the answer and can't figure it out because it doesn't fit their false teaching about when Christ died!
But really, there is no discrepancy. The problem is the WTS itself who doesn't follow the Bible nor knows about Passover ritual and tradition. If they did, they would know that Passover is the first event that occurs on the 1st day of unfermented cakes. It is eaten from sundown to midnight. Then later that day they celebrate the festival of unfermented cakes. The Israelites left Egypt the same night passover is eaten. Thus passover is eaten on the same day as they celebrate the festival of unfermented cakes, the day they leave Egypt, which was Nisan 15th. Now part of the misunderstanding comes from the dating. That is, they think while the sabbath day begins at sunset that also the DATE changes at sunset. But this is not correct. The Israelites when they first left Egypt followed Egyptian custom of changing the solar date at midnight. Thus it was exactly like today. The sabbath is clearly Saturday, but it begins on Friday after sunset. Thus it was still Nisan 14th from sunset to midnight; after midnight it turned to the 15th. But that means that Jesus was arrested on Nisan 15th, which is always a special sabbath day, and thus could not have died that day. The Bible clearly says he died on a day of preparation just before a great sabbath, meaning a special sabbath. Plus he was in the grave for three nights. It is easy to count back from Saturday night to Thursday night. So we know Jesus died on a Thursday and we know that Thursday had to be a day of preparation before a "great sabbath" or a "high sabbath." When we look at a calendar of 33 CE, we see that, indeed, Thursday, Nisan 20th, was a special day of preparation before the "high sabbath" of the 21st. The 15th and the 21st are special "high sabbaths" of Passover week. Further, for him to be in the grave for THREE NIGHTS, and to rise after a sabbath, you have to have two sabbath days in a row. You can't die on a Friday and rise on a Saturday night and claim you were in the grave for "three nights." Thus in 33 CE, that Friday is a special sabbath of passover, the 21st, which is followed by the regular sabbath. So, indeed, you have two sabbath days in a row for that weekend; a special sabbath followed by a regular sabbath.
So now, everything works out. Jesus ate passover on the sabbath day of the 1st day of unfermented cakes, while it was still Nisan 14th until midnight. The meal ends at midnight at which time the date changes to the 15th. Jesus was thus arrested on the 15th, which was early that Saturday morning. Pilate didn't see him until just before noon ("but early" meaning just before the early evening watch which is from noon to 3 pm; John 18:28). He then sent him to Herod to be examined. Herod had all the way until that following Wednesday to try Jesus since that week some prisoner would be let loose on the day before the sabbath. So the morning of Wednesday, Nisan 19th is when Pilate and Herod became close political friends over what was happening with Jesus. Then Jesus' final trial at noon was Wednesday, Nisan 19th. Then he was impaled that night at 9 p.m. (the "third hour") and remained impaled all that night until the next day until at noon it became dark for three hours, then Jesus died. That's it. No discrepancy at all.
Now the WTS has been told this and knows this and has for a long time. But willl they change their false teaching about Jesus dying on Nisan 14th? No. They are like the prophesied "goats" who buck against truth and insist on their superficial teachings, just like people in Christendom sometimes hate to think through new things that might contradict what they have decided is true. They quickly note these details are not important and doesn't change that Christ died for our sins! Yes, but why not go further and understand the TRUTH? Why insist on preaching falsehood?
In fact, I think I'm going to put out a brochure for this "Easter" and Passover time called: "JESUS DID NOT DIE ON NISAN 14TH!" It will show how Jesus must die on Nisan 20th to be accurate with scripture. It's the least I can do. I won't mention anything about JWs in it; I don't want to be labeled as part of a "hate group." I'll keep it simple though and emphasize how Passover is eaten on a special sabbath day, always! If that's the case, then he could not have been impaled that same day.
Also, in passing (I'm smiling at this), the local church which I attended was gearing up for EASTER! I'd forgotten what a big deal Easter was in Christendom. When I mentioned to my relative-pastor that "Easter was a pagan holiday worshipping the goddess Ishtar", he didn't want to hear a thing about it! Even though you can find this on the internet and it is rather common knowledge. Christ's resurrection has nothing to do with rabbits and eggs, but fertility worship does! Anyway, this was something that he just didn't want to discuss. But it reminded me of the witnesses, who simply don't discuss or hear anything that challenges them! They are totally open for long discussions and Bible studies as long as you don't ask any questions that expose their false teachings. The moment you do, you're an "apostate" and they shut you down, but also their own minds. It's sad. But it's one of the ways they can maintain their false teachings! Just ignore figuring anything out!
Perhaps this is why in Revelation, the Lamb-Dragon beast that comes out of the "earth" and thus represents Jehovah's earthly organization, the witnesses, is said to be an image of the "666 beast" which is trinity-666-believing Christgendom (that comes out of the "sea"). Both foster false teachings and maintain that by bucking against any discussion or in-depth reasoning on things that contradict them. It's the same love for spiritual darkness that Christendom has. Christendom thinks Easter is a wonderful Christian holidy and the witnesses think they are living in a "spiritual paradise" -- both of which are made possible by closed eyes and closed minds.
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Sheep2slaughter
Great responses and thanks guys.
I don't believe any of their made up stuff. It just dawned on me that there is no way they could know who was and who wasn't(if it was even real) and I wondered if there was anything Scriptural to support. Doesn't matter because we all including Witnesses will just grow old and die and they will just keep releasing uninspired new light that the sheeples will take as if from God.