Fictious "Universal Sovereignty" Issue Proposed By Watchtower Corporation Is Idiotic

by frankiespeakin 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Frank, and others:

    Again, I'm not trying to incite any arguments. And I can see there are impassioned positions on this subject.

    It could be I didn't make myself clear. I was trying to seperate the perceived responses in the issue from the concept of the issue.

    Whenever a government is disobeyed (what in the Bible might be called 'sinned against,' when God is the government), that government sees it as its right to extract a penalty. In theory, the wrongdoing is seen by the government as a form of rebellion against its rulership, or its right to rule, or set the rules.

    So, in effect, when you get caught for, say, speeding, you've raised an 'issue' with the state's 'sovereignty' or their 'right to set the rules' (in the case of the USA, where traffic laws are mostly the province of states). Now, whether the fines imposed are fair, or whether they are imposed consistantly, or whether the government came into power legitimately or needs replacing are all seperate issues.

    If, as some contend, there is no God, then, there is no issue of 'universal sovereignty' - not because the concept is faulty, but becasue there is no rulership to be offended.

    If God, as ruler, has been rebelled against but has reacted badly, then, again, the issue of injured sovereignty is still valid. The problem would rest in another area.

    At least, this is how I'm seeing it. All the responses above focus on how God has reacted or how the WT has explained God's reaction. None of that, in my mind would change the basic issue of sovereignty that would be raised by a rebellion.

    But thanks for the responses. I'm going to look over them carefully to see if I'm failing to see something that appreasrs to be plain to everyone else.

    Take Care

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Bob,

    Did you ever concider that the talking snake in Genesis was not under the control of Satan? And that the beleif that it was Satan came later in the Christian beleif system. The original story writter of Genesis had no concept of the modern Devil archenemy of God. Without recognizeing this step one makes an erroneous jugdement or what they call a leap in logic.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Bob,

    Another thought to concider that the writters of what we now call the bible are not concerning a "whole universal" deity, with universal issues but a local diety by the people of that era with moody crankiness,, not out to prove his universal rule that is a mere suposition christians modified to suit the times they live in and make the story more or less beleivable.

  • goatshapeddemon
    goatshapeddemon

    This is interesting. I never stopped to think that Moses didn't really embrace a concept of Satan so when is a talking snake just a talking snake? In Eden apparently. And then it really is the children of Bacteria analogy...

    Hmm.

  • Comatose
    Comatose

    I posted this in the other thread but I'm reposting it here too as this was one of my waking up moments. When you realize some of these things do not make sense...

    On top of all that's been said. God hasn't really let people try to rule themselves or played fair according to the bible. First he lets angels come down here to mess things up for us humans. How could that be fair if we are trying to do it ourselves. They dominated and had super kids who dominated people. Is that a fair chance at living? Then he kills everyone but a guy and his 3 kids who sees it his way and starts over with a flood, because the earth is so bad after the demons came down. Then when humans are again off to a start just 120 or so years later building something that is so impressive it worries God, he makes them not able to communicate and scatters them across the earth. He sends the Devil and demons back to earth and causes WWI. All to prove we can't do it ourselves. Does that sound fair?

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Thanks Frank and others for your comments. As one poster above said, 'this is interesting.'

    Incidentally, just as a side point, democracy, as a form of government, would, in theory, be a sort of continuous 'sovereignty issue,' within a legal framework at least. There, whose rulership was just or right would continually be in question. A reversal from autocratic forms of government, where questioning the government is a definite no-no.

    Take Care

  • maisha
    maisha

    and so I as do others here display a GREATER LOVE for MANKIND THAN GOD?

    THAN THE CHRIST?

    that doesnt add up.

    therefore the story doesnt make sense.

    That God hasnt been seen, or talked to in Thousands of years and the last time was in the desert a top a mountain sort of thing IS CRAZY or the baptisim of his supposed son?.

    THAT IMPERFECT humans must choose between good and evil and yet a creature and 1/3rd of all the other creatures whom witnessed the creation of all things choose to side with an angel of light?

    that doesnt make sense.

    I think we al been lied to a lot!

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve are sentenced to death (and their offspring) for 'rebelling against Jehovah's sovereignty'. But later on, Jehovah agrees to the Israelites request for a human king, simply warning them that they will be mistreated by the human king.

    1 Samuel 8:7,22 "And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king....The LORD answered, "Listen to them and give them a king...." (NIV).

    Why the double standard? Why couldn't Adam and Eve still continue to live rather than be sentenced to death, like the millions of angelic rebels do. Why didn't Jehovah also sentence the rebellious Israelites to death since they personally rejected Jehovah's rule?

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Thanks for bringing out other very good points to consider.

    I think this "Universal Sovereinty Issue" has some glarring major flaws that were not even considered by the Watchtower Corporation, which shows how simplistic and Black and White the thinking is of those who run this Corporation.

    They are drowning in Confirmation Bias, as they cherry pick the scriptures and play a game of connect the dots with giant leaps in logic as they make their case for a Universal Sovereignty vindication taking place by a benevolent Diety who is patient, loving and rules with the best interest of his subject.

  • designs
    designs

    God loses control of the universe. Sort of makes the claim of being All Powerful go out the window.

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