Rev 3:12 - New Jerusalem descending out of heaven?

by leaving_quietly 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  prologos

  pterist: thank you, obviously u have studied this and read stuff on it. I am trying to keep things in mind that bear on the question when? does NJ (not near NY, PA) start to exist. Paul warned against the idea that the resurrection had already taken plave in the first century, so when the positions in the NJ are assigned, to the immortal ones take that position? right after 70? Hebr. 10:22 seems not to speak of the NEW jerusalem but the heavenly Jerusalem, an entity that predates Christianity. The "congregation of the firstborn ones-- is ENROLLED-" in the heavens, but could be awaiting the later roll-call to be resurrected. no? Hebrews had only "--approached--" not yet joined that congregation.

  Yes we are in the KINGDOM of Col 1:13, never highlighted in the literature, for not so obvious reasons.

  I am very leary of ideas involving invisible early fulfillments.

  The amazing thing is that we can have these mental constructs using texts that at the time perhaps were not ment to mean that at all.

  My issue with the NJ teaching is that the gates in some doctrinal setups are to allow the immortal ones to enter. the picture does not allow that. for reasons statted in the above cooments. water, leafs for the healing of the nations.

  time will tell, and salvation I leave entirely in the domain of those that can deal with it (if any). profound peace to you too.
• 

  AGuest

  Greetings, dear LQ, and peace to you! I would like to respond, if I may - thank you!

  "New Jerusalem" is actually not the name of city, but the description of a city, the NEW City of Double Peace ("Jerusalem"), the Bride of Christ. "She" is not a literal city as we know of such from an earthly POV - she is a "city/temple" made up of people: Christ, the foundation cornerstone; the Apostles and Prophets, the foundation; the Apostles, the gates; the Prophets and others, pillars; and most, living stones. "In" her is the Tree of Life, Christ... and his kings/priests... those which are in union with him and thus the "branches" in that Tree (of Life). The Highest "Ruler" in this City is the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies ("Pharaoh")... who has conferred authority upon His Son, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH ("Joseph"), whose authority comes from the throne of God (JAH).

  God provides food and drink to those of the nations who "enter" into this "city"... by means of the "leaves" of Tree of Life (the flesh of Christ... or "manna") and the "river" of "living" water (the blood of God and Christ... holy spirit) that "flows" FROM the "throne" of God and Christ, the Lamb. There is no "temple" in this city that IS a temple... because God (the MOST Holy One of Israel) and Christ (the HOLY One of Israel) are its temple.

  This city "comes down out of heaven" in that it is formed in the spirit realm... in the place where JAH dwells... by means of a "marriage" between the Lamb (Christ) and his Bride (those who make up the "city")... where these become ONE by means of becoming one in spirit (he, the Head of the Body, they the Body). Once that union is fully accomplished... in which these become LIKE Christ... flesh of HIS flesh and blood of HIS blood... so that LIKE him they can "go in and out"... between all realms, the spiritual AND the physical... they return to the physical to rule OVER it... which they do ON the earth (and not from "above" it).

  Thus, the NEW Jerusalem, which is named "JaH eTsidhqenu"... or "JAH is our righteousness/vindication" is established on the EARTH... which JAH created for man and which will not be made to totter. She replaces the old Jerusalem, which was the center/heart of the people beloved of God, Israel, the progeny of God's friend, Abraham.

  I hope this helps.

  Again, peace to you!

  A doulos of Christ,

  SA
• 

  leaving_quietly

  Thank you, all.

  Shelby, I'm a tad confused by what you say. I mean no disrespect by that. Your posts intrigue me.

  "New Jerusalem" is actually not the name of city, but the description of a city, the NEW City of Double Peace ("Jerusalem"), the Bride of Christ

  Thus, the NEW Jerusalem, which is named "JaH eTsidhqenu"... or "JAH is our righteousness/vindication"

  This was a "duh!" moment for me. It's plainly obvious in Rev 3:12 that "New Jerusalem" is not the name of the city. Why have I never caught that before? " I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem" I assume "JaH eTsidhqenu" is the name of the city written on "Him that conquers" (who is that, by the way?)

  "She" is not a literal city as we know of such from an earthly POV - she is a "city/temple" made up of people: Christ, the foundation cornerstone; the Apostles and Prophets, the foundation; the Apostles, the gates; the Prophets and others, pillars; and most, living stones.

  How is this so? Rev 21:15-21 describe what appears to be a physical, brilliant, beautiful city. I understand about the Christ being the cornerstone and the gates and such, but the language used here indicates a physical city. You're saying it's not a physical city?

  The Highest "Ruler" in this City is the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies ("Pharaoh")... who has conferred authority upon His Son, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH ("Joseph")

  Why do you refer to JAH as Pharoah and his Son as Joseph? What connection am I missing?

  by means of a "marriage" between the Lamb (Christ) and his Bride (those who make up the "city")

  Who is the Bride? We've always been taught it is the 144,000. However, other posts would seem to indicate this might not be the case. I'm admittedly confused here.

  A related question: what is the distinction between the 144,000 and the "great crowd"? (in the simplest terms possible, please)
• 

  AGuest

  Shelby, I'm a tad confused by what you say. I understand, dear LQ (peace to you!). If what was occurring with me wasn't, I would be confused, too. No, seriously... I would be. Who ever told us of these things?? No one, at least in MY history.

  I mean no disrespect by that. Your posts intrigue me.

  No worries, dear one - I totally believe you as to both.

  This was a "duh!" moment for me. It's plainly obvious in Rev 3:12 that "New Jerusalem" is not the name of the city. Why have I never caught that before?"

  I felt the SAME way when it was revealed to me!!

  I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem" I assume "JaH eTsidhqenu" is the name of the city written on "Him that conquers" (who is that, by the way?)

  The "he" that conquers is my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), dear one... and yes, that is the name of the city... and yes, it is "written" on him.

  How is this so? Rev 21:15-21 describe what appears to be a physical, brilliant, beautiful city. I understand about the Christ being the cornerstone and the gates and such, but the language used here indicates a physical city. You're saying it's not a physical city?

  (Smile) It is a physical city, yes, in that it is made up of PEOPLE, dear one. BEAUTIFUL people, not in physical aesthetics... but in SPIRIT. Let me show you something, something my Lord showed me - the Apostles, as the "foundation" of this city... from the POV of God and Christ:

  "The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, thethird chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst." Revelation 21:19, 20

  THIS is how the apostles are viewed in the eyes of God and Christ: as PRECIOUS "stones". Indeed, Christ himself is referred to as the "stone"... the "builders rejected."

  Why do you refer to JAH as Pharoah and his Son as Joseph? What connection am I missing?

  The account of Joseph and Pharaoh is actually a precursor to the relationship between God and Christ: because Joseph didn't presume to raise HIMSELF up (being a servant of the TRUE God), but humbled himself and took his "torture pole" (he subjected himself to the penalties imposed upon him, although wrongly accused by Potiphar's wife)... he was called up by Pharaoh. In subjecting himself to Pharaoh, he ended up being EXALTED by Pharaoh himself, to Pharaoh's right hand... so that he became over ALL of Pharaoh's belongings... all of EGYPT... except over Pharaoh himself. He was entrusted with gathering, storing, and distributing PHARAOH'S grain... so that any who wanted BREAD... had to go to HIM (and not Pharaoh; going directly to Pharaoh would have been utter disrespect for Pharaoh himself because it would have ignored and attempted to usurp HIS declaration that it was to JOSEPH folks had to go for grain. In the same way, because he did not exalt himself... although he had power to DO so, as the Son of God... my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA (MischaJah)... was exalted BY the MOST Holy one of Israel, JAH (the Father)... to HIS right hand, second only TO JAH... and placed over ALL of JAH'S belonging... in heaven AND on earth... and anyone who wants to receive "food" from JAH... must go to... and THROUGH... that One to get it. And trying to get "fed" any other way... makes one a thief and a plunderer. Because HE is the One exalted by God. John 10:1; 14:6)

  Who is the Bride? We've always been taught it is the 144,000. However, other posts would seem to indicate this might not be the case. I'm admittedly confused here.

  The Bride of Christ are those who are in union with him by means of holy spirit. This union makes them ONE spirit... as a human man and woman are one FLESH. Just as Eve was bone of Adham's bone and flesh of Adham's flesh... this Bride is bone of CHRIST'S bone and flesh of HIS flesh. She is made up of at least 144,000 "from the among the sons of Israel"... as the firstfruits of this Bride... ALONG WITH a great crowd from EVERY nation, bribe, tongue and people... including those from Israel who are NOT "sealed" as part of the 144,000. Because ALL Israel will be saved. They just all be part of that first number. (Revelation 5:9, 10; Romans 11:24-32)

  She/they are called a "bride"... because they are joined to a "husband." The word "husband" comes from a term that means caretaker. For example, one who cares for a vineyard... or for livestock. NOT to say that this Bride is a mere plant or livestock or property. Husbandry denotes GREAT care: knowledge of the thing being cared for so that it is CULTIVATED. Cultivated so that it thrives... grows... and bears fruit/offspring... doing so because it is WELL cared for. Christ cares for the congregation... his BODY... as he cares for himself. Adham... blew that. He not only did not care for his own flesh and bone, Eve... but threw her under the bus in a rash attempt to save his own hide. What he SHOULD have done was OFFERED his life... which was still PERFECT when SHE ate... in turn for hers. Both would have been forgiven, just based on HIS love and sacrifice. He didn't... and so they both died, as have their progeny since.

  Christ, however, DID offer his life on behalf of HIS bride. Rather than throw HER under the bus ("Look, Dad, they're ALL sinners; why not just get rid of them and start over!?") he GAVE his life to save theirs. As a result, he PROVED himself to be Israel's "husbandly owner". Not only Israel's... but the world's. Anyone in it... who wants to join to him.

  A related question: what is the distinction between the 144,000 and the "great crowd"? (in the simplest terms possible, please)

  144,000 = Guaranteed slots (thus, "sealed") for 12,000 from each tribe of Israel (excluding Dan and Joseph, as Rachel's firstborn, gets two shares)... in fulfillment of JAH's promise to His friend, Abraham.

  GC - Non-guaranteed slots for people of EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue... including some Israel who are not in the sealed group... to replace unfaithful Israel. Israel as a whole was supposed to make up a people for special possession and holy nation to God. When they rejected the king HE sent them... He turned His attention from Israel and to the nations to "take out of THEM a people for His name."

  Together, these... the "little flock" of Israel (little, because they number only 144,000)... and the "other sheep" of the GC... make up that "people for a special possession" and "holy nation" to God. They are the "temple" in which He dwells by spirit... the NEW Jerusalem and holy city of David. Through these people, IN WHOM the Law of God is written... ALL the nations of the earth "bless themselves."

  The City/Temple looks, thus:

  JAHVEH = the MOST Holy

  Christ = the Holy

  144,000 + GC = Courtyard of Priests

  Israel (not priests) = Courtyard of Israel

  Non-Israelite women who proved faithful (Ruth, Rahab, etc.) = Courtyard of Woman

  Sheep (Separated from Goats) = Courtyard of Gentiles

  Goats (Gog) = Outside the City

  I hope this helps, dear LQ.

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  I felt the SAME way when it was revealed to me!!

  I don't know what you all are smoking, but the real creator revealed the actual truth to me.

  

  The only thing that will descend out of heaven will be meteorites and space dust. Earth will eventually end when the sun starts to burn out, but something will have happened to mankind by then- either extinction or life on ships like in Battlestar Galactica. All he revealed clearly was that there will be plenty of red sauce until then.
• 

  leaving_quietly

  Shelby, thank you for all that. A few things, if you please...

  The account of Joseph and Pharaoh is actually a precursor to the relationship between God and Christ

  The funny thing is that, speaking for myself only, every time I think of Pharoah, I always think of the bad Pharoah in the days of Moses. I keep forgetting there was a good Pharoah. However, I never did make this connection, though upon further research, I see the connection was made long ago in the publications. One thing I did not find in the publications, but did find in scripture was another correlation: Pharoah gave Joseph a new name. Jehovah gave Jesus a new name, also.

  The "he" that conquers is my Lord, the HOLY One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah), dear one... and yes, that is the name of the city... and yes, it is "written" on him.

  This doesn't make sense to me. The verse (Rev 3:12) says: "The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God". Isn't the speaker here Christ? Going all the way back to Rev 1:1, "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him". So, "the one that conquers" couldn't be Christ in this context. It's repeated in verse 21: "To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne." Clearly, "the one that conquers" in both these contexts is not Christ (otherwise, Christ would be granting to himself to sit down on his own thrown.)

  As for the foundation stones, they have the names of the Apostles on them, as the Rev 21:14 says. You're saying the stones are the Apostles? That's a new thought.

  As a result, he PROVED himself to be Israel's "husbandly owner".

  I appreciate what you are saying here, but you attribute this to Christ, whereas in Jer. 3:14, this is attibuted to Jehovah: "“Return, O YOU renegade sons,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I myself have become the husbandly owner of YOU people; and I will take YOU, one out of a city and two out of a family, and I will bring YOU to Zion." Also, Isa 54:3 states: "For your Grand Maker is your husbandly owner, Jehovah of armies being his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Repurchaser." So, I'm just curious about your statement regarding Christ being Israel's "husbandly owner".

  As for the rest... ok, it's a lot to think about, at the very least. Many thanks.
• 

  AGuest

  This doesn't make sense to me. The verse (Rev 3:12) says: "The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God". Isn't the speaker here Christ? Going all the way back to Rev 1:1, "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him". So, "the one that conquers" couldn't be Christ in this context. It's repeated in verse 21: "To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne." Clearly, "the one that conquers" in both these contexts is not Christ (otherwise, Christ would be granting to himself to sit down on his own thrown.)

  (Smile) I know what you mean. But how about this:

  "Now Isaw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” And I looked, and behold, a whitehorse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and toconquer." Revelation 6:1, 2

  As for the foundation stones, they have the names of the Apostles on them, as the Rev 21:14 says. You're saying the stones are the Apostles? That's a new thought.

  Yep.

  I appreciate what you are saying here, but you attribute this to Christ, whereas in Jer. 3:14, this is attibuted to Jehovah: "“Return, O YOU renegade sons,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I myself have become the husbandly owner of YOU people; and I will take YOU, one out of a city and two out of a family, and I will bring YOU to Zion." Also, Isa 54:3 states: "For your Grand Maker is your husbandly owner, Jehovah of armies being his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Repurchaser." So, I'm just curious about your statement regarding Christ being Israel's "husbandly owner".

  Israel was JAH's "wife" in a sense, in that "she" was promised to Him by means of a covenant (which a contract, like marriage). When the Son inherited the kingdom... he inherited all who are in the NEW covenant... and thus the contract of marriage. Which is why the Body is to be in union... or one... with him, the Head (of the Body). Like Eve (as to Adham), they become "bone of [his] bone and flesh of [his] flesh." Since he gave HIS life for them (unlike Adham who, rather than giving his perfect life for HIS wife... to save HER from her sin... which LOVE would have prompted him to do - "No one has greater love than to give his life...")... he becomes their "husbandly" owner.

  These verses might help you "see" what I mean:

  Matthew 22:1-14

  Matthew 25:1-13

  2 Corinthians 11:2

  As for the rest... ok, it's a lot to think about, at the very least.

  I know; I'm sorry, really. You COULD skip me, though... and go straight to the Source... and ask HIM. Nothing to read that way (LOL!).

  Many thanks.

  You are QUITE welcome. The privilege has been mine.

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a doulos of Christ,

  SA