Rev 3:12 - New Jerusalem descending out of heaven?

by leaving_quietly 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • leaving_quietly
    leaving_quietly

    There are scriptures talk about New Jerusalem descending out of heaven.

    Rev 3:12 - “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.

    Rev 21:2 - I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Most scholars feel all this is figurative, because, well, as Barnes said:

    "The idea of a city literally descending from heaven, and being set upon the earth with such proportions - three hundred and seventy miles high Revelation 21:16, made of gold, and with single pearls for gates, and single gems for the foundations - is absurd."

    Eze 37:12 - ‘“And I will conclude with them a covenant of peace; an indefinitely lasting covenant is what there will come to be with them. And I will place them and multiply them and place my sanctuary in the midst of them to time indefinite.

    The WT teaches the "sanctuary" is nothing more than "pure Christian worship." (w73 p283)

    Thoughts? Has anyone researched this?

  • prologos
    prologos

    just what is left after reading all the rlevant scriptures: After a reconciliation, restoration in heaven, Gods attention is on the earthly situation.

    The city is made up of the bride, names of the apostles in the foundations of the walls. So the city is made up of the living stones. Inside the city are the lfegiving trees and the water for the healing of the NATIONS. they gain access through the open gates. will the water be brought out to them? the 12 crps? Schleppen by the chosen, immortal ones? not likely. The gates are open, guarded by angels. 12 names of the 12 tribes? spiritual tribes made up of all nations.

    The coming down out of heaven must mean gods renewal of spriritual/material blessings for MANKIND.

    caveat: this is bible critique, if the fable/ unreal events are verified first.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Well, the bible is absurd. If it wasn't; if what it talked about was all real and true, then, god and his entourage landing on the earth in some form would be just another real possibility.

    S

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    Some Christians believe the New Heavens and New Earth are the spiritual blessings that are readily available NOW, since the overthrow of satan at the cross. He HAS transferred us into the Kingdom of his SON ! Colossians 1:13

    However, I would not totally rule out some transformation of the physical universe Romans 8:21

    Shalom

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    Most understanding on this topic is based on which millennium one ascribes to ! Post, Pre, Amillennium, and all the dispensational sub cathorogies?

    shalom

  • Ding
    Ding

    However you interpret it, I think it indicates that the WT's 144,000 = heavenly, great crowd = earthly, teaching is wrong.

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    Ding Especially when it's considered an article of faith and must be believeD their way for salvation ! I would not bet/ trust my salvation on dates ?

  • prologos
    prologos

    pterist: thank you: ---descending out of heaven--" when? The bride/city made of living stones must be complete before descending? so it must be post- Great tribulation/ Armageddon right?

    The bride descends with open gates -not to let the 144 000 enter, but admit the members of the 12 tribes made up of all nations that need to enter to get at the water and trees inside the walls.

    Living stones RISE to meet christ in heaven, DESCEND to make earthly creation whole. all in the invisible, spiritual but real sense.

    caveat: if the bible story is real valued.

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    Personally, I ascribe to a Amillenium / partial preterism, not conditional for salvation of course ;)

    The first fruits, early Christians were transferred into Christ's kingdom since Penticost and given their assigned positions when the physical temple was destroyed in 70AD and the NEw Jerusalem was setup in the heavens.

    Christians are told in Hebrews to look to the Jerusalem ABOVE as our real HOME now. We HAVE BEEN already transferred into Christs Kingdom spiritually, Colossians 1:13, but 2 Peter says we live righteous lives as we AWAIT the New Heavens and New Earth. If we die now as Christians we are with the Lord, what the final New Heavens and New Earth are like, Im not sure. However, it will need to be an environment that is consistant with an eternal state of immortality.

    Shalom my friend.

    Typically POST-Millennium is seen as Christ coming back, AFTER The Christian "church" brings about a Christian theoracy on earth. It encourages involvement in politics which I vehemently oppose.:)

    Shalom

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    LOL- I'm too lazy to type anything- but here's a scan of 'The Dead Sea Scrolls' (Wise Abegg & Cook) pg. 180:

    THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS
    12. A VISION OF THE NEW JERUSALEM
    1Q32, 2Q24, 4Q554-555, 5Q15, 11Q18

    In the year 586 B.C.E., the armies of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, destroyed the Temple of the Lord that King Solomon had built in Jerusalem. Some of the best religious thinkers in ancient Israel, such as the prophet Jeremiah, saw in this event the welcome judgment of God on a nation that had placed too much reliance on external worship and not enough on the religion of the heart. Others equally pious, such as Ezekiel, agreed, but longed for the day when the God of Israel would restore to his people all that had been lost, giving them a new temple and temple city. Ezekiel himself contributed to this longing with a vision of a new temple and a new Jerusalem (Ezek. 40-48), but he was not alone. The book of Isaiah speaks of a new Jerusalem encrusted with jewels (54:11-12), and the book of Tobit speaks of a time when "Jerusalem and the temple of God will be rebuilt in splendor, just as the prophets have said" (14:6-7).
    The new Temple built after the Israelites returned from exile in the fifth century B.C.E. was only a modest substitute for these dreams, and those who remembered the first Temple wept when they saw the foundation laid for the new one (Ezra 3:12). There were still dreams of another, greater, temple. In the first century B.C.E., Herod the Great doubtless depended on widespread fascination with such a dream to provide popular support for his building programs within Jerusalem, including a new, magnificent Temple.
    The Qumran texts testify to this continuing fascination of the idea of a new Jerusalem with two examples: text 131, The Temple Scroll, and the present text. A Vision of the New Jerusalem, reconstructed from several scrolls, is a detailed description of a Jerusalem-to-be given by an angel to an unknown recipient, quite in the manner of Ezekiel's vision, but differing in many details. No description of the temple itself survives in the fragments, but the temple is mentioned several times.
    The dimensions of the visionary city and buildings are too large to be realistic. The city, for example, measures 140 stades on the east and the west, and 100 stades on the north and south. In modern terms these dimensions would be 18.67 miles by 13.33 miles (the stade being 2/15 of a mile). This new Jerusalem would have been larger than any ancient city and could only have been built by divine intervention, like the even larger city beheld by a later visionary in the New Testament book of Revelation (21:9-27).

    So there was nothing unusual about the new Jerusalem in Revelation- it seems to have been a common desired vision in the 1st century.

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