India Buys New Fighter Jets from Russia

by fulltimestudent 35 Replies latest social current

  • designs

    In Oliver Stone's recent documentary on History Russia's role in ending WWII was festured. 1.5 Million Russian soldiers wiped out the last standing Japanese army in Mongolia and Manchuria causing the capitulation of the Japanese Empire. There resolve was to sacrifice millions of their own in war.

  • Bobcat

    Here is what purports to be a DoD video on the perceived Air to Air/ Surface to Air threat to US interests. Part of that threat is what is posed by Sukhoi/MiG designs and other well designed Russian equipment. (This is from the western perspective - with due respect to our eastern friends).


    FTS - as someone said, interesting thread, and a nice break from religious interests.

  • jgnat

    On the exchange rate alone it has got to be a better deal than buying from the USA. And the airplanes are built in India, a job generator.

  • fulltimestudent

    Thnx designs - I have not seen Stones' film. He's right, of course, the surprising speed of the Soviet advance would have been understood in Tokyo by the Military. They had been prepared to resist the US 'island hopping' advance and likely felt they could resist long enough to negotiate more favourable surrender terms. But now with parts of the Japanese Island chain to the North in Soviet hands and with Korea lost, the invasion of the home islands would be far easier. Also, the Japanese airforce was in tatters, hence their kamikaze tactic using suicide missions against American warships.

    There are two interesting analyses of the Soviet Manchurian campaign. One by the Rand Corporation and one by a Senior Officer at a US Military college, if you're interested.

    I would disagree, at least to an extent with your interpretation of Stone's editorialising ( that their (Soviets) resolve was to sacrifice millions of their own in war). Its true that the Soviets lost millions in the beginning of the German offensive as the Soviet Union proved unable to resist the German advance. Whole armies were lost. But there seems little question that the Russian people supported Stalin's war efforts, and proved that they were willing to die for their country (as I presume Americans would if they were in a similar situation.

    War (whether we approve or disapprove) calls on military personel to be ready to die.

    However, was that the policy in Manchuria?

    The battle program shows that the Soviet Generals always thought they would proceed at speed. Does that indicate they had good intelligence as to the state of the Japanese Kwantung army? I believe they did. There were three possibilities for intelligence information. First there were the Chinese communists (together with Korean communists/nationalists who had been fighting a guerilla war in Manchuria. Second, the Soviets had formed at least one special brigade, the 88th Independent Brigade, compromising former guerilla's in Korea and Manchuria and who had been forced out by the Japanese. Kim Il-Sung became an officer in that brigade. Thirdly, there were the Mongolians who would have been familiar with western Manchuria. All of Mongolia had been part of China until the Russian revolution, during which the Mongolians opted to become a Soviet Republic, so there were certainly many who would likely have had good contacts (for intelligence) among Manchurian people resisting the Japanese.

    So I suggest there is reason to believe that there was no extraordinary policy of " sacrificing millions."

    And, the final casualty figures: 87,000 Japanese against 30,000 Soviet. Does that indicate - 'sacrificed millions' ?

    Another point of interest: The Japanese quickly over-run the Allied armies in S.E.Asia and the Phillipines, whereas prior to the war, the Russians had defeated the Japanese Kwantung Army in Manchuria on two seperate occasions. (Khanki Gol and Lake Khason).

    Finally, without the succesful Soviet campaign against Germany in the west, WW2 would have lasted much longer. We should give credtit where its due.

    Try this episode from 'Battlefield' for a reasonably balanced account.

  • Talk22

    Su-27 and Su-30 would be down before they even knew what hit them up if up against an F-22. You can't fight what you can't see and the F-22 has the best avionics package on the planet for an air superiority fighter. Those russian birds would be down from beyond visual range. Plus the F-22 has thrust vectroing and can do the Cobra easily and it has lower wing loading and higher thrust weight ratio.

  • jgnat

    Really, doesn't India's air force just have to be better than Pakistan's?

  • james_woods
    Really, doesn't India's air force just have to be better than Pakistan's?

    They may actually be more worried about the Chinese...

  • Scott77

    They may actually be more worried about the Chinese...

    Taking Pakistan and Chine into context, Iam inclined to state that India is 'between a rock and a hard place' or 'between the devil and the deep blue sea'


  • fulltimestudent

    India and Pakistan

    There is certainly friction between India and Pakistan, but is it totally irreconcilable? A closer examination may give a different picture.

    For example in 2012, the Indian government appointed a Muslim, Syed Asif Ibrahim as head of India's Intelligence Bureau. As such, Syed has to deal with such difficult issues as the threat of Islamic militancy, including home grown Muslim terrorists. There is also the very difficult issue of Kashmir an focus of ongoing conflict as its population is overwhelmingly Muslim. That Muslim majority wanted at partition to join Pakistan, and many militants still fight for that right. There was supposed to be a plebiscite, but the Indian government has refused that.

    Muslims are the second largest religion in India with around 160 million adherents (2001 census. I think it is true to call them 'integrated' into Indian society, though there is evidence that there is some discrimination. But there is also evidence of integration. Hindu writer V.S> Naipul is married to a Muslim woman and his children are being raised as Muslims.

    Islam first came to India in the 7th century (not long after it became established in Saudi Arabia). It travelled with the Arab traders who came each year to the Coast of Southern India, a long established trade centre for the Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean. The Romans had traded with the area from around the 3rd century BCE. From the south of the peninsula the trade routes continued to Guangzhou in south China. And Islam spread from southern India along the trade routes of the period.

    The other road to India was in the north, through Afghanistan. That's the road that Alexander the Great had followed in the 4th century BCE, in his 'conquest and Hellenisation of the world," that brought him to the edge of the sub-continent. The evidence seems to be that militant Islam reached North India in the 12th century. Muslim and Hindu rulers jockeyed for power, and in the process various forms of Islam became part of India's culture. Consequently Muslims have been integrated into the Indian scene and in modern India, Muslim's live under Muslim Personal Law in the Indian Legal code. Sharia law takes precedence for Muslims over the Indian Civil Law.

    Westerners make a mistake to see the world in black and white - the reality in Asia is much more nuanced. Sadly, those who are culturally influenced by the Bible are much more likely to see the world in binary opposition.

  • jgnat

    ....and how about Canada, with Russia to the north, and the USA to the south?

    The DEW line.

    DEW Line

    Manifest Destiny.

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