Pterist:
Lets look at the following translations of Jeremiah 25:29 that show how they twist scripture.
I hadn't actually taken a close look at how other Bibles translate that particular verse before. Thanks for brining it up.
The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed
by FaceTheFacts 259 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Jeffro
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Pterist
Another question for FACETheFacts...
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This is from a JW website as follows .....
So the question begs to be answered from a Biblical standpoint: did the 7 times begin in 607 and end in 1914? Did the 7 times begin when the ruler on Jehovah’s throne in Jerusalem, Zedekiah, was cut down in 607 and end in 1914 with the rightful ruler, Jesus, the twig of Jesse, becoming the King in God’s Kingdom in heaven? How Long Are the Seven Times?
http://www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/appendix.html
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Was Zedekiah the ruler on Jehovah's throne ???? He was a puppet king setup by Neb. And did NOT have Jehovah's approval, in fact the following scriptures show he was EVIL in Jehovah's eyes and NOT the last legal king. ........
*******The evil that was done in the eyes of the Lord, was going to Egypt for protection against Babylon, instead of submitting as God had warned him, through Jeremiah the prophet. Zedekiah did not trust God, but leaned on Pharaoh and his army.
Jeremiah 52:3 "For through the anger of the Lord it came to pass in Jerusalem and Judah, till He had cast them out from His presence, that Zedekiah rebelled against the king of Babylon."
King Zedekiah had made an agreement with Nebuchadnezzar as to how Judah would be run, and after Zedekiah assumed the throne, Zedekiah broke that agreement and ran down to Egypt. This is what angered the Lord. Zedekiah's problems came when he refused to listen to Jeremiah the prophet of God. Zedekiah tried to work out his own salvation, and do exactly opposite of what God had instructed him to do.************
Jeremiah 29:
15 ¶Because ye have said, The Lord hath raised us up prophets in Babylon;
16 Know that thus saith the Lord of the king that sitteth upon the throne of David, and of all the people that dwelleth in this city, and of your brethren that are not gone forth with you into captivity;
17 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will send upon them the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so a evil.*******************
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The LAST Legal King of Judah was King Jeconiah and the blessed exiles went into captivity with him, approx. 10 years BEFORE destruction of Jerusalem. And the Gospel writer Matthew acknowledges that Jeconiah was the Last king of Judah. Matthew 1:11-15, and his offspring Zerubbabel was returned with the exiles. So if you need to apply the 2520 years from the Last LEGAL king of Judah, you need to base it on the exile of king Jeconiah, approx 10 years BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem......
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AnnOMaly
Pterist, cross-check the cedar and vine riddle in Ezek. 17 where the Judean kingdom was brought low ("abased the high tree" - v.24) with the removal of Jehoiachin and was to rise again through Jehoiachin's royal line.
Regarding the Gentiles dominating the Judean kingdom, Jehoiachin's father Jehoiakim was appointed by Pharaoh Necho after he removed his brother Jehoahaz from off the throne and took him captive to Egypt (2 Kings 23:30-35).
FTF has, I think, been ejected from the building so he won't be able to answer your questions here.
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Pterist
Thanks Ann ;)
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Londo111
Discussion continued here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/244258/1/Question-for-607-apologists
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MeanMrMustard
Wow, these 607 threads get long, and they get long fast. I missed this entire thing.
It is interesting that FTF (or whoever he/she is) kept insisting that it was somehow OK for Ezra and Daniel to come around later and completely change the meaning of Jeremiah. It is the "new light" mentality taken to an extreme, right up to God Himself. As if it doesn't destroy the entire Christian theology (no matter what denomination) to have God instruct the Israelites with plain words, and yet, He never really meant it in the plain way it was stated. Rather, Daniel and Ezra have to come around later and make it clear that God meant those words to be taken in an opposite way.
Again, sounds like the new light mentality .. seems logical that God should be able to do this, after all, he does it with his modern organization. Things always change, back and forth, contradicting (not just progressively revealing) the previous teaching... and its all OK. That's just the way God does things....
MMM
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Terry
A layman cannot quote expert texts KNOWINGLY. It is way too easy to fumble contexts.
The Watchtower Society does not now and has not ever had any EXPERTS or actual scholars. They are laypersons with a doctrinal axe to grind.
The rest of us smell the baloney but we aren't experts either.
Does it make sense to fight proxy wars when you are a layperson?
For an apologist it comes down to CONFIRMATION BIAS.
For Apostates it comes down to SKEPTICAL disconfirmation of presentations of crafted
"evidence".Who of us is qualified academically to disambiguate without falling into the quicksand of TOTAL OVERWHELM?
Just askin!
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Jeffro
Terry:
Who of us is qualified academically to disambiguate without falling into the quicksand of TOTAL OVERWHELM?
That's a fairly dim view. Basically... "I can't hope to understand so why bother trying"???
Much better to show that proving the JW chronology wrong is not really out of anyone's reach.
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AnnOMaly
From little acorns ...
Like with anything, you start picking it up little by little, collecting information from the experts, until you have a reasonable working knowledge. Of course, you have to have sufficient interest not to be satisfied with merely smelling the baloney but to find out WHY it stinks. In this internet age there is even less excuse than ever to abdicate the responsibility to know and find out.
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Terry
Who of us is qualified academically to disambiguate without falling into the quicksand of TOTAL OVERWHELM?
That's a fairly dim view. Basically... "I can't hope to understand so why bother trying"???
Much better to show that proving the JW chronology wrong is not really out of anyone's reach.
I understand that. However, just as a writer cannot create characters above the writer's own level of intelligence, so too, we cannot grasp fully and with certainty "facts" beyond our academic credentials.
A self-imposed confidence is foolhardy.
In other words: WE ARE FIGHTING THE WRONG BATTLE because it cannot be won.
607 B.C.E. is a skirmish in a larger context of a greater war.
This is brain surgery. Why stand and argue brain surgery if you are not a physician and pretend you actually understand what you are talking about? It is hubris.
He said--she said.
My expert can beat your expert.
So's your old man. Your mamma wears Army boots. Nanna nanna nanna.
To those who understand, no explanations are necessary. To those who don't understand, no explanations are possible.
Theologic arguments are the game of muscle-flexing and not intelligence. That's all I'm saying.
Look at these 10 pages and try and tell me this is a "well-reasoned" colloquy.
I'll share this with you. Take it as you like.
TERRY'S TEST: Any discussion debate or argument over "facts" which includes one side or the other employing the word "ridiculous" IS A COMPLETE WASTE OF EVERYBODY'S TIME.