by I_love_Jeff 30 Replies latest watchtower bible
Terry:
If it is the TRUTH...why do they keep changing it??
This is where they pull the Trump card:
"Truth does not change, only OUR UNDERSTANDING of it, as mere imperfect mortals, does".
See, they can have it both ways.
Of coursre, your understanding of their $h1t, as a mere imperfect mortal, has to be in a locked step with leadership....
ILJ: Thats a logical fallacy called tu quoque .
Pioneer JW: Whats that?
Educated JW: two what?
Mexican JW: tu que?
Elder JW: You have satans' expressions
How would I call it?.... a waste of time...
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ILJ: Thats a logical fallacy called tu quoque.
Pioneer JW: Whats that?
Educated JW: two what?
Mexican JW: tu que?
Elder JW: You have satans' expressions
Sadly, that is not an unlikely reaction.
Ignorance breeds fear and bondage.
Education is the key to freedom.
The biblical Jesus had it right: the truth will set you free.
Marvin Shilmer
I am not good at putting fancy names to debating tools and fallacies, but I am getting better at smelling B/S when it is placed before me.
The argument that "the apostles made mistakes too" is both irrelevant and a red herring. Ask yourself. 'what kind of mistakes did the apostles make?'
They sometimes quarralled. Peter made errors of judgement in personal matters. Paul admits personal failings and prior to Jesus death they did not understand everything. But when the H/S appointed them as teachers, everything they said was spot on.
I have no problem if the G B fall out over something, or act like men.....that is o k . It is what they write, what they teach that is important.
They claim to be acting for Christ, dispensing his "spritual food" as directed by Holy Spirit
WT 2005 11/1 p 20
"Through the faithful and discreet slave class, Jehovah has provided us with helpful publications and rich programs at meetings, assemblies, and conventions—all of which fill our spiritual needs. (Matthew 24:45-47) There is certainly no shortage of spiritual food. “The faithful and discreet slave” has produced millions of Bibles and Bible study aids, and such publications are now available in 413 languages. Jehovah has provided this spiritual food in great variety"
If it is provided by God, it cannot be mistaken, only humans make mistakes. Since it is "Impossible for God to lie" , Jehovahs provisions would have to be accurate knowledge. The only conclusion therefore,is that their writings are not spirit directed at all, and have a merely human origin.
Well said Blues
The fallacy is that there is TWO starting points for "new light" and maturity.
As Christians we see the debates over circumcision and fellowship in the new creation (Jew and Gentile). There was no other major issues except to live a Godly life thought grace and Christs power and to identify who and what Christ was 1 John 1:1-5 ...the Eternal Life of God in the Flesh... 1 John 4:... The apostles and first century Christians gave us the NT .....Food for ALL time from them as they were the FDS that left us the NT..
When the separation of the wheat and weeds was/is carried out, did you notice the wheat was/is MATURE...no further feeding required.....
The WBTS would have us believe that this was ANOTHER STARTING POINT for feeding and new light, getting brighter, something that was condemned by Paul in Galations 1:6-13.....was there a ANOTHER STARTING POINT in 1874, 1914, 1919 ...NO ! There lies the fallacy.
The reformation and the reforms always took us BACK to what the early Christians believed NOT something new, and speculative. The WTBS's fruit is seen in all it's failed phophesy.....
Shalom
"JW states: Since the apostles made mistakes, it is okay for us to make mistakes as well"
I guess I've treated it as a false analogy. If the apostles made mistakes, does that mean that everyone that makes mistakes must be an apostle?
Of course, then it's easy to treat it as a slippery slope in two directions: 1) Is it also okay when other religious leaders "make mistakes", since the apostles made mistakes? Politicians make mistakes. Celebrities and business leaders make mistakes. Isn't this just leading to the idea that everyone's mistakes are okay? 2) Since the apostles made mistakes, we really can't have much confidence in everything they said, can we? Similarly, we really can't have much confidence that things we are told today will be recognized tomorrow as "mistakes".
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"Ask yourself. 'what kind of mistakes did the apostles make?'"
In the world of Watchtower and Jehovah’s Witnesses that’s an important question for members to ask, and for potential members to ask.
Supposing there was a first century centralized governing body:
- There is no biblical record that governing body ever formed and imposed any teaching on pain of shunning that later had to be changed.
- There is no biblical record that governing body treated any person as an apostate for teaching something that was true though at odds with something it was teaching.
Compare that to Watchtower’s reality:
- There is ample record of its Governing Body forming and imposing many teachings on pain of shunning that later had to be changed.
- There is ample record that Governing Body has treated many persons as apostates for teaching something that was true though at odds with something it was teaching.
My advice for those who’d assert a comparison of mistakes of record for the early Christians with those of Watchtower is this:
Tell your Governing Body I’ll begin treating it like the early governing body when it starts acting like the early governing body.
Marvin Shilmer
If I could maybe stick my nose in here to clarify, since I am the recent recipient of some of these conversations. Its not quite as simple as the apostles made mistakes, so can we.
Here are the examples I have been given.
1) The apostles expected Jesus to set up his kingdom on earth even after being corrected multiple times, after his death. Apparently they were allowed to be "refined" in this regard.
2) Peter was racist (true), and was corrected and allowed to continue as an apostle.
3) At the end of John a "saying went out among the brothers that John would not die". This was of course not the case, so the saying that went out was false. Did it keep God from bestowing his spirit?
4) Revelation 2-3 has the letters ot the Christian congregations. They were the only congregations to go to, and had rampant problems. Where else would a Christian have gone during that time? Would it had been right of them to "forsake the gatehring of themselves together" because of what was happening? Nothing in the bible suggested that they were to stop attending, rather Jesus was giving them room for repentance.
I just want to make sure we are having a conversation about what they ACTUALLY think.
Also, Paul rebuked superfin apostles, a guy was disfellowshipped for screwing around with his brothers wife, there is an edict to not even say hello to someone who does not accept the heathful teaching, and Dyotrophese was also in the wrong. Proof you need to "keep the congregation clean" from apostates such as you fine people.
Yan Bibyian - "Truth does not change, only OUR UNDERSTANDING of it, as mere imperfect mortals, does".
The Truth isn't being called into question, it's why we have not been taught the truth that is.
Is it acceptable that our teachings of the Truth are not the truth?
If our teachings are from Jehovah, why are they different to what is actually the Truth?
Is this a valid statement for when Churches change their teachings too?
The congregations are told that we are given food at the proper time. What is proper about serving spiritual food that is not truthful?
Splash
