new thinking after reading Collosians

by Honeybucket 46 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Christ Alone
    Christ Alone

    BTW, the Holy Spirit is ALSO called "God" and referred to in the scriptures when speaking about God, MANY times. The Holy Spirit is given the exact same qualities that God has in the scriptures. He is called eternal. The Holy Spirit, the Counselor, will be with us "forever" (John 14:16). The Spirit is "eternal" (Heb. 9:14).

    He is Omnipresnet: David, praising God's greatness, asked, "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there" (Ps. 139:7-8). God's Spirit, which David uses as a synonym for the presence of God himself, is in heaven and in sheol (v. 8), in the east and in the west (v. 9).

    He is Omnipotent: The works that God does, such as creation, are also ascribed to the Holy Spirit (Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30). Miracles of Jesus Christ were done "by the Spirit" (Matt. 12:28). In Paul's ministry, the work that "Christ has accomplished" was done "through the power of the Spirit" (Rom. 15:18-19).

    He is Omniscient: "The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God," Paul said (1 Cor. 2:10). The Spirit of God "knows the thoughts of God" (v. 11). The Spirit therefore knows all things, and is able to teach all things (John 14:26).

    He is equal to God: Several passages discuss the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as equals. In a discussion of spiritual gifts, Paul puts the Spirit, the Lord, and God in grammatically parallel constructions (1 Cor. 12:4-6). Paul closes a letter with a three-part prayer: "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Cor. 13:14). Peter begins a letter with this three-part formula: "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood" (1 Peter 1:2).

    He is spoken of using word interchanges with "God". Acts 5:3 says that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit; verse 4 says that Ananias lied to God. This indicates that "the Holy Spirit" and "God" are interchangeable and thus that the Holy Spirit is God. Some people try to explain this by saying that Ananias lied to God only indirectly, simply because the Holy Spirit represented God. This interpretation might be grammatically possible, but it would imply the personality of the Holy Spirit as a divine representative, for one does not lie to an impersonal power. Moreover, Peter told Ananias that he lied not to humans, but to God. The force of the passage is that Ananias has lied not merely to God's representatives, but to God himself, and the Holy Spirit is God to whom Ananias lied.

    Another word interchange can be seen in 1 Cor. 3:16 and 6:19. Christians are not only temples of God, they are also temples of the Holy Spirit; the two expressions mean the same thing. A temple, of course, is a habitation for a deity, not a habitation for an impersonal power. When Paul writes "temple of the Holy Spirit," he implies that the Holy Spirit is God.

    Another type of verbal equation between God and the Holy Spirit is seen in Acts 13:2: "The Holy Spirit said, `Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." Here, the Holy Spirit speaks on behalf of God, as God. In the same way, Heb. 3:7-11 tells us that the Holy Spirit says the Israelites "tested and tried me"; the Holy Spirit says that "I was angry.... They shall never enter my rest." The Holy Spirit is equated with the God of the Israelites. Heb. 10:15-17 also equates the Spirit and the Lord who makes the new covenant. The Spirit who inspired the prophets is God.

    The Holy Spirit also creates. The Holy Spirit does work that only God can do, such as creating (Gen. 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps. 104:30) and expelling demons (Matt. 12:28).

    The Holy Spirit is the way in which God lives in his children (Eph. 2:22; 1 John 3:24; 4:13). The Holy Spirit "lives" in us (Rom. 8:11; 1 Cor. 3:16) — and because the Spirit lives in us, we are able to say that God lives in us. We can say that God lives in us only because the Holy Spirit is in some way God. The Spirit is not a representative or a power that lives in us — God himself lives in us. Geoffrey Bromiley gives a concise conclusion: "to have dealings with the Spirit, no less than with the Father and the Son, is to have dealings with God" ("The New Holy Spirit," in The New Life, edited by Millard Erickson, p. 23).

    The Bible also shows that the Holy Spirit has a PERSONALITY. The Spirit has mind and will, speaks and can be spoken to, and acts and intercedes for us. All these indicate personality in the theological sense: The Holy Spirit is a Person or Hypostasis in the same sense that the Father and Son are. Our relationship with God, which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit, is a personal relationship.

    The Holy Spirit "lives" (Rom. 8:11; 1 Cor. 3:16).

    The Spirit "knows" (1 Cor. 2:11). Rom. 8:27 refers to "the mind of the Spirit." This mind is able to make judgments — a decision "seemed good" to the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28). These verses imply a distinct intelligence.

    1 Cor. 12:11 says that the Spirit "determines" decisions, showing that the Spirit has a will. The Greek word means "he or it determines." Although the Greek word does not specify the subject of the verb, the most likely subject in the context is the Spirit. To find a different subject, one would have to backtrack through five verses and six mentions of the Spirit. But this grammatical leapfrogging is not necessary. Since we know from other verses that the Spirit has mind and knowledge and judgment, there is no reason to reject the conclusion in 1 Cor. 12:11 that the Spirit also has will.

    Numerous verses say that the Holy Spirit spoke (Acts 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 21:11; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7; etc.). Oden observes that "the Spirit speaks in the first person as `I'; `It was I who sent them' (Acts 10:20).... `I have called them' (Acts 13:2). None but a person can say `I' " (The Living God,p. 200).

    The Spirit may be lied to (Acts 5:3), which indicates that the Spirit may be spoken to. The Spirit may be tested (Acts 5:9), insulted (Heb. 10:29) or blasphemed (Matt. 12:31), which implies personal status. Oden gathers additional evidence: "The apostolic testimony applied intensely personal analogies: guiding (Rom. 8:14), convicting (John 16:8), interceding (Rom. 8:26), calling (Acts 13:2), commissioning (Acts 20:28).... Only a person can be vexed (Isa. 63:10) or grieved (Eph. 4:30)" (Life in the Spirit, p. 19).

    Jesus called the Holy Spirit the parakletos — the Comforter, Advocate or Counselor. The Paraclete is active, teaching (John 14:26), testifying (15:26), convicting (16:8), guiding (16:13) and making truth known (16:14).

    Scripture talks about praying in the Spirit (Eph. 6:18), the fellowship of the Spirit (2 Cor. 13:14), and baptism in the name of the Spirit (Matt. 28:19).

    So, no, there are not just 2 people to be considered (Jesus and the Father). There are very clearly 3 persons in the unity that is God.

  • ÁrbolesdeArabia

    Christ Alone, a very good person to engage this theory with is brother Greg Stafford. I hear he is into deep study with the Trinity, have you discussed the Trinity with him? He could give you a run for your money on this topic.

  • Sauerkraut

    What is with the dogmatism in this thread?

  • ÁrbolesdeArabia

    The Trinity brings out strong emotions from each side, will a person go to Hell or not receive eternal life if they don't belive Jesus Christ is the Father and what scriptures would you use to show the punishment for denying Jesus is Jehovah?

  • Sauerkraut

    Strong emotions need to be kept in check, ÁrbolesdeArabia. It's tiresome to see how most believers think they have it all figured out and need to adjust others viewpoints. At the end of the day, no one can claim to have the truth and to know it all. It would be good for all to remember that. Folks, the bible is not a tool to strike others with if they have a different opinion.

    Did Jesus punish the people for not knowing? Or did he speak up against the religious leaders for burdening others down and confusing them? All here agree that Jesus is the way, right? Remember the common ground. I find it hard to believe that God would punish anyone for accepting or not accepting the Trinity. Usually it's believers who make issues, not God. There are things that can be debated without end, because there is no absolute clarity, if God wanted it known for sure, he would make that happen.

  • Fernando

    Hey Honeybucket!

    My personal spiritual journey has led me to conclude that the Watchtower is one of the foremost supporters of the apostasy that was born at Nicaea, namely ethnocentrism, or doctrinal supremacy, which includes doctrinal dissection (gnat straining over peripheral doctrines, whilst camel gulping or swallowing lethal error).

    I believe it is no accident that one of the first casualties of ethnocentrism is the "unabridged gospel".

    That is why Watchtower religionists claim to be "publishers of the Good News" whilst the "Good News" according to Paul, Moses, Isaiah and Psalms is not on their lips or in their hearts.

    Ironically more than half the NWT's roughly 152 references to "good news" are by Paul!

    (BTW although of very limited significance in the grand scheme of things to me, I have gravitated to the model where the father is not the son and is not the Holy Spirit, but all three make up the one office of God).

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Black Sheep,

    Don't you know better??? No

    Don't you know Church history?? I'm talking about current teachings

    Have you never talked to a priest? I prefer to refer to official church documents for what a church teaches, just as I do when discussing Watchtower teachings, as individual church members may be mistaken as to what they teach.

    Have you never been preaching? No. I only ever peddled tracts for a religious publishing company.

    The trinity doctrine means that there is three persons in one God, and that they are completely equal in age, power, knowledge etc.

    Mark 13:32 makes it clear that they are not equal in knowledge, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.", which would have been one of the reasons why the authors of the Athanasian Creed didn't include equal in knowledge.

    Now please show me an official Catholic document that confirms they teach that they are equal in knowledge



  • unstopableravens

    catholic and jw are both apostate from truth. but jesus is god and eternal. the father is not older,that makes no sense. i have one son he is three, i have been a father for three years and my son has been my son for three years,the time of me being a father depends on how long i have a son it has to be the same,no son no father! so if jehovah has always been the father than jesus has always been the son. simple logic.

  • Larsinger58
  • unstopableravens

    thats was ur best post ever lars! i agree with all of it lol

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