You write like one Tammy! Keep up the good work!
The Great Crowd: Why... and Why No Man Is Able to Number...
Oh... thank you for your kind encouragement, Arboles :)
(It is not me though, and so I cannot take credit for something that the Spirit of Christ teaches. I am learning more and more to listen to Him. One need only look to Him (the truth) for understanding... even if that means hearing and recognizing the truth in something shared.)
Peace to you,
What's fascinating to me is how individuals claim to be getting revelation from a divine source but almost invariably already have a good chunk of their doctrine and phraseology lifted from their preceding religion. Now if a xian prophet suddenly started quoting from the books of other religions as revealed truth that would at least be more novel. When people rebel against their religion thinking they can do it better they seem to still use the carcass of their former belief. Disgruntled Xians remain xian and just swop a few doctrines around, disgruntled Mormons hark back to earlier versions of doctrine , ex-JWs still talk in terms of Jah and 'Great Crowds' betraying their roots. If the JWs were genuinely as wrong as the Mormons as the Baptists as the Catholics yadda yadda you should find a wholesale rejection of their buzzwords ( especially pet names for god) and their prized topics methinks because these areas of focus were made up by a supposed false religion.
Good thoughts, Qcmbr.
There's a good discussion about this going on on the jwstruggle forum atm..
What's fascinating to me is how individuals claim to be getting revelation from a divine source but almost invariably already have a good chunk of their doctrine and phraseology lifted from their preceding religion.
For myself, I don't have a preceding religion. The phraseology can be found by anyone in the bible... that the wts uses it does not make it theirs.
Now if a xian prophet suddenly started quoting from the books of other religions as revealed truth that would at least be more novel.
Why? What if that is not truth? What would be so novel about it then?
When people rebel against their religion thinking they can do it better they seem to still use the carcass of their former belief. Disgruntled Xians remain xian and just swop a few doctrines around, disgruntled Mormons hark back to earlier versions of doctrine , ex-JWs still
talk in terms of Jah and 'Great Crowds' betraying their roots. If the JWs were genuinely as wrong as the Mormons as the Baptists as the Catholics yadda yadda you should find a wholesale rejection of their buzzwords ( especially pet names for god) and their prized
topics methinks because these areas of focus were made up by a supposed false religion.
Once again, not a disgruntled former anything. Many religions carry bits and pieces of truth in them (else why would we have been attracted to them to begin with?). Like I said, the wts or the mormons or any other denomination does not own terms and concepts... and it is a fallacy/mistake to think that one would have to throw out everything and never ever look at any word or understanding of a previous religion, just because that religion itself proved also to have false things within it. That would be allowing one's preceding religion to have control over you. Not worrying about whether they had similar words and such... or not... would mean being free of their 'chains'.
Peace to you,
The 144,000 are a literal number of literal descendants—the remnant—of the twelve tribes of Israel. That's what the scriptures say, and that's what the only book of the word which belongs to the Word of God says, and he means it.
The great crowd of all nations include those who are of Israel and Judah (remember, Jews were just from the southern kingdom of Judah, and ten tribes of Israel exited stage left and became "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" which the shepherd came for before opening the ministry after his death to all mankind).
Hosea is a prophecy about the nation or kingdom of Israel, not Judah, just Israel. When Jacob died he gave the birthright (rights of first born) to Joseph, more specifically to Joseph's son Ephraim, which included bearing his name, Israel. Judah on the other hand was given the right to kingdom rule. Check out all the promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and you'll see that there's a division of what went where. Thus when the two kingdom's split after Solomon's demise, Judah became "Judah" and the 10-tribes of the north continued to be known as "Israel". When Israel went to fight Judah shortly thereafter we first find the use of "Jew" in the scriptures. (Kings is the history according to Israel, and the Chronicles according to Judah.) Why harp on all this? Because I'm not sure how anyone makes any true sense of the scriptures without recognizing that "the house of Judah" is not the same as "the house of Joseph/Ephraim/Samaria/Israel". Back to Hosea, Israel was no longer shown Mercy, and their name was taken away as they were told that they were no longer God's people. YET read that book. Man is that a torrid love story if ever one was written! Can you take back an adulterous lover who you never rejected? Nope. And look at how passionately he writes about his beloved and unfaithful Israel (after chapter 1).
Also, check that out. Hosea speaks of the scattering of the seed, and the great day of planting. That's a clever play on words—the Yizre’el of Yisra'el. (Remember there is no "J". "J" is just a decorative "I", same we know that God's name is not nor ever was Jehovah.)
Israel was going to go sow their wild oats, spreading their seed all over the sea of mankind.
Read that again and picture it as graphically as you can. Israel was going to be scattered into the people of the nations with whom they'd spread their sperma bringing Abraham's promised seed promises through Joseph/Ephraim into a graphic reality—"You will be the father of a multitude of nations."
You know how those whores have that troublesome habit of calling out the wrong name in bed?
It will be in that day,” says Yehowah,
“that you will call me ‘my husband,’‡
and no longer call me ‘my master.’§
For I will take away the names of the Baals** out of her mouth,
and they will no longer be mentioned by name.
‡2:16: ”Ishi” means literally, “my man”.
§2:16: ”Bali” means literally, “my lord”.
**2:17: ”Baal” means literally “Lord” however it refers to false gods, such as “Baal-Zebub” or “Baal-Gad”, and not to whom Christian's refer to as "the Lord"
††2:22: Yizre’el, “God Sows”, means both “to scatter” and “to plant”.
‡‡2:23: the scattered are planted
§§2:23: the children of Israel, not Judeans
I digressed a bit there, but the point is that this is all directed towards Israel, not Judah (the Jews) and meant to come true, as simply as he put:
I will betroth you to me forever.
Yes, I will betroth you to me in righteousness,
in justice, in loving kindness, and in compassion.
I will even betroth you to me in faithfulness;
and you shall know Yehowah.
The children of Judah and the children of Israel will be gathered together.
Out of the children of Judah and the children of Israel there are 144,000. Someone said there were never 12 tribes, alas there were always 12 tribes, despite all the machinations which the devil attempted to destory God's plan of twelve—twelve sons of Jacob, twelve apostles, twelve is the number even after Judas, right?
The united kingdom of Israel always used a similar fashion when convening in war or military formation.
The Great Crowd is, as you said, of all people and nations, and thus includes descendents from the kingdoms of Israel, and of Judah, and all the other nations of the earth. It's just a marvel that so many of the nations of the earth are populated by actual descendants of the scattered seed of Israel who are 'not his people' because they don't realize that they are 'his people' by birthright.
Of those some are circumcised of heart, and others are not. The same way as some Jews were not circumcised of heart, though circumcised of flesh.
Thus opens the answer to who do the 144,000 rule over on earth, if the great crowd is in heaven—a stumper for Witnesses.
Daniel shows that at Armageddon the kings who live are stripped of their power, but allowed to live a little while longer. Likewise Revelation 20 tells a simple story of the actual events, in a simple linear fashion of the thousand years. Recall you've got the kings stripped but alive, Satan bound and tossed, then the 144k who all died in service brought back, as well as those pictured who came out of the great tribulation dressed the same as the other humans in heaven—all in white. The rest of the dead don't come back to life in any way shape or form until after the thousand years have ended. Meanwhile back on planet earth you have a bunch of people—we could call them Jehovah's Witnesses, plus all others who were slaves to men instead of recognizing Christ's call as head. They fell pray to the false Christ's kingdom—Christendom—and thus he never got to know them. But he and his father are great guys, so those folks get to come to know who the Truth is, and go to the great camp out around Jerusalem. Remember that whole thing of Israel being restored, and people grabbing hold of the skirt of Jews traveling back home to the promised land saying "let us go with you, for we heard that God is with you people"?
Abraham was also promised that his descendants would be as the stars in the sky, if he could number them. While the 144,000 are his descendants, those are very clearly numbered—aren't they? Alas, he was also to become the father of a multitude of nations. (I like when translations use the same rendering throughout—the great multitude of nations, from Genesis to Revelation!) Those are the unnumbered like the stars of the sky—as Daniel says they'll shine brightly!
And yet Abraham was also promised that his descendants would number as the sands of the sea—and the majority of Israel had a earthly hope under the old covenant, while there were a few in Hebrews were discussed who had received the anointing. Those are the people who live through Armageddon and make a choice either to gather as "the nations" in the four corners of the earth to await Satan's release, or to gather as "holy ones" to camp out as God's people around his beloved city awaiting the last events after the thousand years—Satan's destruction, and the descent of the New Jerusalem.
Those are the people that are judged by those in heaven, and ruled over. Christ handles those who are dead, and those bought from among the earth handle those who live through the last days.
The Great Crowd (or multitude of nations) and the 144,000, are in heaven and share a common trait of having been believers of as defined by faith and responded to Christ's invitation. (Many invited but few are chosen to marriage feast of the king's son, but many will come from the east and the west to eat at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven!) Those are the Lamb's bride (144k) who with the great crowd are the body of Christ. (Man and wife become one; or Lamb and wife in this case.) The assembly of Christ and his anointed guests.
The assembly of God is not forgotten on earth—the meek shall inherit the earth—even if they failed to recognize the calling of Christ while they had the time to recognize his voice in faith and thus receive the reward of the faithful in heaven. Both the Great Crowd and the 144k are in heaven before Armageddon, and even earlier before God's wrath is poured out on the earth.
I've been working on simply compiling the scriptures (by chapters or books) into the sequence of events, and began with the thousand years. See here if interested. I would love to discuss scripture with folks who are concerned with what the Word says, apart from what we were taught. I'd love input and feedback!
I don't believe in religion. That's with all thanks to the Watchtower, who taught me all religion was false religion—Christendom. So once I learned that they too were standing in the place of the Son of Man and attempting to act as if God, where he'd already chosen and sent his representative... well that's when I learned that it was true—all religion is false religion. The truth is a man, and he is the Word of God...
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
"The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth."
"Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth."
"I will ask the Father to give you another Helper, to be with you always. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.
The world cannot receive him, because it isn't looking for him and doesn't recognize him.
But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you….
When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth.
For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears.
He will also declare to you what is to come."
From those who believe in "spiritual Israel" or "spiritual Jews" then how is the 144,000 out of all Israel, but the great crowd out of all nations? Wouldn't they be "spiritual Israel" too?
What happened here...
Peace... and my apologies to all for dropping this discussion! I guess the board moved really fast because I hadn't seen this for awhile (I could have been distracted, as well, and so apologiz if that was also the case).
So, let me paraphrase what I think you're saying. The 144,000 is a literal number. (I'm a little confused as whether these are only from Israel or include Gentiles.)
It is, dear LQ (peace to you!) and they are only from "amongs the sons of Israel." Literally, this means it includes Jews... and Gentiles... as a "gentile" is someone who is not a "Jew." Jews are only those of Israel from the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah - Judah/Benjamin - but not from the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel. However, TECHNICALLY, Gentiles are considered those NOT of Israel. So, depending on how you look at it (technically or literally), it definitely is "only" Israel; however, some of Israel were consider of the "nations", and so, those of Israel who were not Jews... and thus, Gentiles... are also included. The BEST way to identify the 144,000 and the great crowd would be "Israel"... and "the nations."
The "great crowd" and the 144,000 together make up the holy nation, a people for a special possession.
The "great crowd" really is a set number, but no man can number because only Jehovah knows the full number, and it's based on his timetable.
No, dear one. The great crowd is NOT a set number... because it's based on time. It is the number of those who make it into the "ark" (of the NEW Covenant) before the Door (that is Christ) is "closed" (by JAH). Since no man knows the time, no man can state the number. Although JAH knows the time, He does not know the number of those who will respond and get "onboard" before he closes the Door.
Do I have that right?
Partly, yes; partly, not so much.
Questions: Are the 144,000 priests and rulers over the "great crowd"? If not, whom are rulers over?
No. Together, these rule over the "sheep" that are separated from the "goats" (Matthew 25:31-46).
Are the 144,000 in heaven or on earth after Armageddon?
After Armageddon, they are in both: heaven ON earth, by means of the things "in heaven AND on earth" being brough back together again. Which occurs BEFORE the war at Harmageddon... when the NEW Jerusalem, or Christ and his Bride... come down OUT of heaven (i.e., spirit beings that reside upon the earth, but have access to the spirit realm, as did Adham BEFORE he sinned - John 10:9)... to be upon the earth. Because that's where they rule: UPON the earth.
Is the "great crowd" in heaven or on earth after Armageddon?
Same as with the 144,000, dear one.
Thanks in advance!
You are QUITE welcome!
Again, peace to you!
A doulos of Christ,
1) the144 000 rule over the great crowd (that comes out of the Great Tribulation) and the resurrected ones, and the angels and all.
This is an error, dear Prologos (peace to you, as well!):
1. The 144,000 don't rule OVER the GC, but WITH them (Revelation 5:9, 10; 7:15); and
2. Those who take part in the FIRST resurrection are of either of these groups; they are those who belong to Christ but have died when he returns (John 11:25: Revelation 20:4, 6). By the time of the SECOND resurrection, the 1000-year co-rulership with Christ will have ended (Revelation 20:5, 7, 12, 13), so the only "ruler" will BE Christ, who's rulership is NOT limited to 1,000 years, as is that of his co-rulers... but is indefinitely lasting and forever (Revelation 20:4; Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14) -
2) The 144 000 go where Christ went , and word has it he went to heaven. answer: heaven not earth.
Along with the GC, they meet my Lord in the air... after which he escorts them to the Father's dwelling place, the spirit realm... for their marriage and spiritual unification to the him, the Lamb; however, they return to the earth, as the NEW Jerusalem (John 14:2-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Revelation 7:15; 21:2).
3) the jury is out on that one. Temple NAOS is in heaven, the tent, protection is with mankind. Rev 21:3.
Both the temple (hieron) and the sanctuary (naos) are in heaven for a time, dear one... and both are on earth, as well. The NEW Jerusalem IS the temple of God (Acts 17:24, 25;1 Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:19-21; 1 Peter 2:5; Revelation 3:12)... a city/temple... made up of people in which God dwells by spirit. In that city/temple, however, is a temple... which is not a building... but two other people: Christ, the Lamb (the "Holy") and God, JAHVEH Himself (the "MOST Holy") - John 2:19, 21; Revelation 21:22; Exodus 26:33, 34; Leviticus 21:22)
The entity not dealt with is the 12 tribes of israel in the context of REV.7s great crowd.
The 12 tribes are the "firstfruits" of those who make up the kings and priests. It was supposed to be ALL of Israel but since they rejected the King and Leader appointed by God... they were majorily replaced by a people of EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue... to be this kingdom (Revelation 5:9, 10) and priests (Revelation 7:15).
try this: 12 tribes minus 144 000 equals Great Crowd.
The 12 tribes are "from among the sons of Israel," dear one. For your equation to be correct, the GC would also have to be Israel. Yet, they are taken from EVERY nation, tribe, tongue and people. The are the FELLOW citizens of the "holy ones"... who are Israel.
caveat: this is only valid if the garden with talking snake and cloned lady before the everest -covering waters 4000 years ago is real.
The garden, cloned lady, and everest-covering waters were real. There was no talking snake, though. It was a serpent... which is not a snake. It's not even a beast. And they all talk.
I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a doulos of Christ,