Great Crowd & Earth Questions

by turtleturtle 27 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  DATA-DOG

  Uhh??? I think that I am going to die. I partake so I hope that's good. I would never claim to have all the answers, but your views are very interesting. It seems to me that if you believe in Christ and die then you are alright. If you live to see the G-trib and die you are ok. If you live through it then you will be alright as well.

  I want to make sure that I am getting this. Aguest feels that there will be a G-trib and at some point Christ will step in. An undetermined number will be used in a ruling capacity for 1000 years. Meanwhile people from the literal nations of the earth who lived through armageddon ( political leaders who didn't know any better, India, China, whoever) will be alive on the earth for a chance to be judged as worthy of being transformed to a better existence ( body-spiritual or spiritual-body ) and being granted entrance into the New Jerusalem which literally descends from heaven. Oh, is the 144,000 a literal or symbolic number of those ruling and then the Great Crowd those not specifically ruling but working with Christ to try and bring the nations to repentance?

  Then Satan is loosed. He along with his forces mislead members of the nations ( whoever they can mislead ) into trying to fight against Heavenly Jerusalem?

  Pterist, you feel that when ancient Jerusalem was destroyed the G-trib was fulfilled. You don't believe in a secondary fulfillment? You do feel that when we die we will transform to a heavenly existence. You also feel that the 144,000 was symbolic, but it symbolized all who lost their lives in the first century before Jerusalem fell. Of course they actually numbered far more than 144,000. So either way Christians are in a good position provided they truly believe in Jesus. Only those who are really corrupt will fall at Armageddon?
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  DATA-DOG

  A couple more questions:

  1) Does History estimate the number of first century Christians who died faithful?

  2) How many Bible Students were there before C.T.Russell died? They were ALL going to heaven right? So there better not have been more than a literal 144,000. BTW, Rutherford's closing the heavenly door is one of the dumbest things of all time. All they had to do was be honest and admit that they must be wrong about the 144,000 and not claim to have all the answers...
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  AGuest

  I may have misunderstood you, but are you saying that for the last 2000 years, Christ has been on his throne in heaven alone, and only after a future greatest tribulation of all time that things will begin to happen ?

  Not at all, dear Pterist (peace to you!). My Lord began ruling in 30 CE. The outpouring of holy spirit was evidence that he had been installed and began ruling... from JAH's right hand. Ruling how? He has been ruling over his sheep... "subduing" them... meaning, teaching them peace... while his enemies still exist. "In the midst of his enemies." After the tribulation that is to come, he will rule further, for 1,000 years, with his Bride/co-rulers. Then he will turn the kingdom back over to the Father... for destruction of Gog and Magog and then the "End" (Judgment). Once the Judgment was completed, the kingdom will be given BACK to him... and he will rule... alone... forever.

  Uhh??? I think that I am going to die. I partake so I hope that's good. I would never claim to have all the answers, but your views are very interesting. It seems to me that if you believe in Christ and die then you are alright.

  Not quite, dear DDog (peace to you, as well!). The demons believe; doesn't put them in lind for life. One must EXERCISE FAITH in Christ, that he is the Son of God, died but rose from the dead, lives, and so speaks... and so put faith in what such one HEARS from him... and believe/do it. Faith is not dead... or blind, dear one.

  If you live to see the G-trib and die you are ok. If you live through it then you will be alright as well.

  If you belong to Christ, yes. Belong, meaning are in union with him so as to be part of his Body... and Bride.

  I want to make sure that I am getting this. Aguest feels that there will be a G-trib and at some point Christ will step in.

  No, dear one. My Lord does NOT step in. He returns "immediately AFTER" that tribulation. Which means it has concluded... without his intervention.

  An undetermined number will be used in a ruling capacity for 1000 years.

  Yes; however, they act more as priests than kings. Kings in that they have authority to judge; however, priests in that, although kings with power to judge, they DON'T judge (because their leader doesn't judge and admonished them to STOP judging). Rather, they "offer up sacrifices" (prayers) on behalf of others.

  Meanwhile people from the literal nations of the earth who lived through armageddon ( political leaders who didn't know any better, India, China, whoever) will be alive on the earth for a chance to be judged as worthy of being transformed to a better existence ( body-spiritual or spiritual-body )

  Oooh, no, dear one. Not even close. The ONLY ones to survive the "war" at Har-Mageddon... are those INSIDE the City. Which are those who formerly ruled with Christ (144,000 from among the sons of Israel, and an unnumbered crowd from among every nation, tribe, etc.... and the "sheep" who were given access and attended the marriage feast). Everyone outside... Gog (the "goats") and Magog (the spirit beings that were cast out of the spirit realm)... the wild beast... the false prophet... and the Adversary known as "Satan"... are destroyed.

  and being granted entrance into the New Jerusalem which literally descends from heaven.

  New Jerusalem "descended" more than a 1,000 years prior to the event at Har-Mageddon.

  Oh, is the 144,000 a literal or symbolic number of those ruling

  It is a literal number... and only part of those who rule with Christ. Unlike the great crowd, these are (1) from among the sons of Israel, and (2) sealed, in order to assured their places... so that JAH's promise to Abraham is fulfilled.

  and then the Great Crowd those not specifically ruling but working with Christ to try and bring the nations to repentance?

  The great crowd ALSO rule, as kings and priests (Revelation 5:9, 10). They are no different than the 144,000 other than they do not hail from Israel and are not (necessarily) Abraham's. Thing is, since they are from EVERY nation, tribe, etc., they also include some from Israel. Just not those sealed as part of the 144,000.

  As far as bringing the nations to repentance... neither group does that. Neither group CAN do that. Even JAH and Christ can't/don't do that. One must bring ONESELF to repentance. By means of holy spirit, JAH and Christ can HELP such one "turn around", but the one has to want to, has to make the choice.

  Then Satan is loosed.

  BEFORE "Armageddon," yes. The event at Har-Mageddon occurs AFTER the "thousand years" have ended and Satan is loosed. Revelation 20:1, 2, 7-9

  He along with his forces mislead members of the nations ( whoever they can mislead ) into trying to fight against Heavenly Jerusalem?

  No, dear one: he, alone, using his own false propoganda, along with such "expressions" from the wild beast and false prophet... mislead these, along with Magog, cast out spirit beings. They don't come to try and fight against "heavenly" Jerusalem. Heavenly Jerusalem... or "Jerusalem Above"... is the spirit realm. She is "Sarah", the FREE "wife" of God, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and the MOTHER of those who make us NEW Jerusalem, the Bride of God's SON, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH. Galatians 4:24

  I hope this helps. Again, peace to you, both!

  Your servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
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  Larsinger58

  The 144,000 is just 1/10th of the entire number of kingdom seats. Read Isa 6:13

  Isa 6:13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it.”

  The stump remains natural Jews so that the Abrahamic covenant does not fail. This contradicts WTS' current doctrine that the Jews were totally cast out. Not so. Even Daniel 9 says the covenant for the Jews would remain in force until the end of the week, that week being the jubilee week of 1947-1996. The Abrahamic covenant does not fail, but it is reduced. If the 10% is the 144,000 then the entire kingdom of priests with the gentiles is 1,440,000. Now we all see how 144,000 is not enough looking at the numbers or over time, right? Per the bible, when the final time for sealing comes through, there is not enough qualified to fill the seats so efforts to fill them among the nations, that is, non-Christians, takes place, etc.

  Also, all these rule for the 1000 years from the earth! How effective would they be ruling from heaven? Sending dreams and visions to the "other sheep" elders to do the actual work. No. Christ returns in the flesh and those resurrected are resurrected back in the flesh first and remain in the flesh for the 1000-year reign, then after that for Judgment Day. Then, after everything is back to righteousness in the earth, then is when they go up to heaven with Christ to be angels.
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  Larsinger58

  As far as preterism goes, this is totally contradicted if you use the "7 times" prpohecy to date the 2nd coming in connection with the fall of Jerusalem. That means the specific year of the 2nd coming must occur in the 20th Century whether or not you use any of the available dates now dating the fall of Jerusalem, the popular ones being 607 BCE (wrong), or 587 BCE (wrong), or the corrected year, 529 BCE. That gives you the dates of 1914, 1934 or 1992 for the date of the 2nd coming.

  But there is some confusion when Jesus says, "this generation would not pass away." Well, refer to the indications from Jesus that "some standing here would not see death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." Did he mean that? Yes! That is, some alive from the 1st Century, like John and Paul to name two specific ones, would never die. They would live down to our day without dying. So in that way, some from that very generation would not die until Christ returned. So that reference can be applied to those who were chosen to remain alive down to our day.

  The 1st resurrection is rather strange as well. 1 Cor 15 speaks of them as being seeds who are implanted into bodies of weakness and corruption. this simply means they are implanted into living bodies of imperfect anointed ones. Thus they share their memory, knowledge, language and identity and the 1st resurrection is completely invisible to the world! Think of how awkward it would be to have them in individual bodies, perhaps rising from old graves needing SS3's and a place to stay! Not very neat. Think of how long it would take to educate them to adapt to the modern world? All that is instant when they are transplanted into living bodies of the elect! And yes, again, it is clear that ALL the elect get their spiritual bodies together. How is that possible? None goes to heaven before the other. The only way this is possible if at the time of the "change" ALL are in physical bodies. No problem. Because Christ as well is in a physical body when he rules over the earth for 1000 years. This has all been happening. In fact, I happen to know personally who the resurrected Peter and the resurrected Daniel are. That is, I know their modern identities. Further, I've seen both Paul and John, two men who never died. That's only because I happen to be the Christ that I got to see them, but they are there.

  Now in the case of Paul, holy spirit pointed him out to me and indicated he was still alive. I wasn't sure if that was so, so I rushed home and checked the scriptures, and sure enough, Paul indicates that he would never die. So the Bible says he never died. That's found at 1 Thess 4:15-18 where he says that "we the living who survive down to the Lord's day....". He was talking about those who would die and come back vs. those of the "living" who survive over all those years and who are still alive when Christ arrives.

  So there is no basis for preterism, for one, because of the specific chronology dating the 2nd coming by several prophecies, and (2) because some from that original 1st Century generation never were to die, so Jesus' words are specifically applicable to the generation he was speaking of. Naturally, you presume a normal generation would pass away within a few years and thus indicate that Christ must arrive within a few years. within a normal generation. But since some from that generation would never die, then that generation did not pass away and so Jesus' words are true.

  Now that's the reality. All I can offer is the really insider understanding of this and show you the scriptures. If you reject that any are still alive from the 1st Century, then you reject scripture. If you reject the resurrected ones are now sown into the living bodies of the modern elect, then you are rejecting reality and scripture. I can't help anyone who rejects scripture. So this is for those with the sufficient faith in scripture and holy spirit to handle these truths. The rest will continue misguided until Armageddon suddenly forces everyone to be on the same page.
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  Larsinger58

  Who is the "great crowd"?

  Well based on the percentages from the Holocaust, where two-thirds were exterminated and one-third brought through the fire (Zech 13:8), we could expect the same for those who will survive Armageddon and enjoy the millennium. That is, one third of today's global population. That's still a lot of people! Plus the 144K are just 1/10th (Isa 6:13) of the whole number, to the total king-priests are 1,440,000. Now we all see how that makes sense, do we not?

  Right now the WTS is in total spiritual darkness and they understand none of this. But this knowledge was prophesied to be understood during the end-times just before Armageddon and we are now understanding it all.

  Christ arrived on December 25, 1992 in the flesh and now at 20 years past that date almost, we can only expect the great tribulation very soon. The UN is poised to take over world rule and that will be the final sign before Armageddon. So things are progressing as planned. The Bible prophesied things would seem "delayed" so we know God is waiting until the very last minute so that the very last possible person to be saved can be saved--that's the main point, saving as many lives as possible -- so we are happy to wait.
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  The Searcher

  @LARSINGER58

  We can only express our personal reasonings - as imperfect humans. But the Scripture says that our thoughts and ways are far removed from God's ways and thinking, (Isa. 55:8,9) so what I reason on here (which disagrees with one of your statements) may also be wrong, but it makes sense to me in relation to the God I worship.

  You; " so we know God is waiting until the very last minute so that the very last possible person to be saved can be saved";

  My reasoning is this - the population of the earth increases annually by approx. 75 - 90 million. How many of those new lives accept the ransom sacrifice and bring their lives into harmony with God's standards - 20%, 10%, 5% 1%?

  Who knows? The point is this, there will always be someone born who will want to serve God, but the vast majority won't!

  And if you read 2 Thess. 1:6-9, you can see what the outcome is going to be for all those who reject the Christ and his rulership.

  So the Almighty is allowing countless millions to be born - only to destroy them, just for the sake of a handfull of worshippers who may show up????

  I don't think the end is being delayed - it has been set, and it will come regardless of our personal reasonings or conjecture.
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  designs

  Can you Christian believers be open to the idea that you are dealing in fantasy- as the third meaning of myth. One set of books yield so many differing views.
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  DATA-DOG

  " Can you Christian believers be open to the idea that you are dealing in fantasy- as the third meaning of myth. One set of books yield so many differing views. "

  Yes I can be open to that idea, that is why I am doing research. I am currently wondering how many scriptures are tampered with, I mean how could I ever know? All I can do is test things out. One of my main issues right now is with the timing of the WTBTS. Knowing that there are really ancient civilizations with similar writings and counsel, if you will, tells me that our history is more than we are led to believe. Take the Tao Te Ching for example. I am very interested in people's opinions.

  AGuest:

  Can you give me a simple timeline of how you feel things will take place? Last night was a late one for me. I was pretty tired and did not read your post as well as I should have. I DO agree that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd seem to be the same group. Whatever the case may be in the end, the WTBTS has no authority to be dogmatic and then abuse the household that they are supposedly serving. I ask these questions again for anyone to answer.

  A couple more questions:

  1) Does History estimate the number of first century Christians who died faithful?

  2) How many Bible Students were there before C.T.Russell died? They were ALL going to heaven right? So there better not have been more than a literal 144,000. BTW, Rutherford's closing the heavenly door is one of the dumbest things of all time. All they had to do was be honest and admit that they must be wrong about the 144,000 and not claim to have all the answers...

  The Searcher, I don't believe YHWH would destroy countless billions who do not know thier right hand from thier left, so to speak. Surely they are not all wicked. If anyone deserves punishment it is the World Rulers and thier elite followers who mislead and subjugate thier fellow man.
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  Mr. Falcon

  question: if the WT is wrong about physical people living on earth during the thousand years, then who are "those nations in the four corners of the earth, god and magog" & "the number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced..."?

  well, for 100 years these religious nutjobs (FD&S) supposidly didn't even know what their real role was until recently. So all thier goofy interpretations are suspect.

  Stop reading silly religious books and pick up H.P. Lovecraft.