So Unstop - what about the evolution thing then?
What books have you read on the subject?
Secularism/Nonreligious/Agnostics/Atheist
by jam 42 Replies latest jw friends
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unstopableravens
cofty- i have read books when i was in high school our teacher was big into evolution. but that was 12 years ago so i have not read anything recent
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cofty
So what did you think of the evidence for the transistion from fish to amphibian I posted for you?
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perfect1
Unstoppable- I would like to address the voodoo qustion, but I am basically an athiest- I dont believe in the big G. If he is there I am not afraid.
Voodoo (or vodou) is a powerful system.
In many religions one constant is the presence of posession- I am speaking from the point of view of the Anthropology of Religion. Anthropology is a great field because it is DESCRIPTIVE. Without always inferring a cause to phenomena, anthropology describes phenomena in human societies.
Now, I dont believe the widespread presece of possession necessarily has to be attributed to external beings.
It could be that there is an area of the brain that becomes activated in ritual and does have creative mental power outside of phyiscal, bodily limitations, or there could be an external voodoo Orisha (god) that is actually coming and delivering results, or some combination of the two.
What has been observed, again and again, is the power of a social group to accomplish phenomena which are not easily understood. Healing without medicine, mass mental and physical illness, even speaking in tongues Eulalia. It does happen. the consistency of the phenomena- qualities of sound, etc, mean it is not a one off nor is it faked. It is another state of consciousness whether internally or externally induced.
What fascinates me about this is that this means that reality is socially constructed. IN my opinion, the mental social constructions of a group can be sensed and may develop an nearly material reality.
For example, when you walk into a kingdom hall, there is an actual texture- before any words are spoken, an agreed reality. That to me is the creepiest thing about JWs. That feeling.
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unstopableravens
one of many creepy things lol
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unstopableravens
jam alot of stuff there . let me think about it and will get back to you. how long since you believed in a higher power?
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NewChapter
new chapter: my basic view of evoltion is traits changing in animals over a period of time. which does happen if rabbits or whatever are in a cold enviorment they have to get longer hair.and the ones with short hair will die ,survial of the fit. but that does not show in anyway animal becoming differnet animal a dog is a dog and a cat is a cat.
Unstop, I think you need to read more. You say a dog is a dog etc---but that means you have not looked deeply enough. You are repeating a conclusion that you have read somewhere, but I am convinced that you have not reached that conclusion on your own. Because you wouldn't, and if you had, you wouldn't phrase it that way.
First, let's look at a cat is a cat. Can a tabby mate with a lion? Well they are both cats? Correct? Genetically, they have a recent common ancestor.
I think you have arbitrary lines you are drawing when it comes to species. This is a pretty human thing to do, but it is generally accepted that an animal has speciated when it cannot reproduce outside its group. So a housecat cannot have kittens with lions. Why? Because at soem point in their history, a population became isolated from the other, and they no longer passed genes back and forth. Those traits kept changing and adapting, until finally they were so different, they were a different species. A housecat and a lion are drastically different. If a species can change that much, then why do you doubt that given more time, or even mutation, they can't eventually become something even more different?
The fossil record is starting to show just this. Fish to amphibian. Read about it. There is no imaginary line beyond which a species cannot change. They can change as long as selective pressures push them to do so. You need to read more.
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NewChapter
What has been observed, again and again, is the power of a social group to accomplish phenomena which are not easily understood. Healing without medicine, mass mental and physical illness, even speaking in tongues Eulalia. It does happen. the consistency of the phenomena- qualities of sound, etc, mean it is not a one off nor is it faked. It is another state of consciousness whether internally or externally induced
I've been present quite a few times when people have spoken in tongues. The first time freaked me out a bit---well okay---everytime freaked me out a bit, but this is what I saw happening.
The first time, I went with a friend to a youth group bible study. Toward the end of it, they got up in a circle and linked arms to waists. I was in that circle, and they started to pray individually. Some out loud softly, and some silently. But the circle started to sway. It was hypnotic, and it startled me. I didn't like it, as the feeling was of merging with this group of strangers and becoming one. I didn't know what that oneness should be based on, so I watched their faces. As time went on, I head the occasional 'praise Jesus' or 'praise god' being uttered. Then it went sing-song 'praaaaaise jeeeesus' 'praaaaaaaise God'. Kids that I knew were changing right before me. Many had their eyes closed, which I'm sure intensified the effect of the swaying. After a while they started speaking in tongues.
It was very clear to me, even as a teen, that these people had put themselves into an altered state of mind.
After that, I witnessed other approaches. Some weren't as dramatic, but it was still the same. They changed into this altered state and spoke in tongues. That was holy spirit, according to them.
Yet it is not particular to Christians! Many non-Christian faiths do the same thing. Whirling Dervishes speak in tongues. I don't suppose we have to look too far to see what causes their altered brain states. Inuits have also been known to speak in tongues.
It doesn't take much to understand that tongues does not need to be the only manifestation of this state. Whatever the culture dictates can be achieved. Perhaps if a Christian saw a Whirling Dervish speaking in tongues, they would conclude it was satanic, not even realizing how similar the experience is to many Christians. Or perhaps a person begins to mimic the actions of an animal. That would look a bit scary to the average Christian, but that Christian may not flinch if they see their own dancing about or convulsing on the floor.
READ.
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perfect1
I think you have arbitrary lines you are drawing when it comes to species. This is a pretty human thing to do, but it is generally accepted that an animal has speciated when it cannot reproduce outside its group.
Agh! I am hooked back with this one. The really interesting thing about this- and I will try to find a reference for you if you like-is that dogs, wolves, and even one other one are different species but are related enough to interbreed.
Canis and lupus share common enough ancestry that though different species the technically do not meet the definition of species (able to produce viable reproducing offspring for 2 generations)
So, as is plain to see looking at all of what dog can mean, and considering the common ancestry- a dog is not just a dog, but a few thousand years removed from being a wolf.
Studying dog breeding might be a fun and entertaining why to consider this assertion.
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NewChapter
Agh! I am hooked back with this one. The really interesting thing about this- and I will try to find a reference for you if you like-is that dogs, wolves, and even one other one are different species but are related enough to interbreed.
Yeah---that's why arbitrary lines are so difficult. It's only a general rule that speciation occurs when interbreeding is no longer possible. And I would like a link, because there are also other factors, and I'd like to see how they may be overcome. Yet that is not the only criteria. It depends on the discipline. Some will break down the species into many more categories than others, because they need more specificity. In reality, humans share a common ancestor with cats, but we usually don't speak in those terms when we talk about common ancestors. We get a bit more focused.
I think of sexual recognition as a barrier that is not genetic. An individual may not recognize another as something to mate with, even though genetically they can reproduce, they don't even try.
That's the danger of stating things in a few paragraphs, and why reading on one's own is so important. There are few black and white answers, and many variables. However, a housecat cannot reproduce with a lion. They have grown that far apart. So what is to say they won't continue to change so much, they are no longer even recognized to be in the same family?
We have evidence that Neanderthal and Sapian interbred, so clearly we are only speaking in generalities.