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by AGuest 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Peace to you (forgive me if that offends/insults, but I felt wrong not offering it in opening this new thread). To continue where we left off on the "Truce" thread:

    There is no such thing as relative truth - it is not open to subjective feelings. Truth is truth.

    I totally agree! I've been saying that here for YEARS! More than a decade, even!

    If you assert something as a fact it imposes itself on your readers who have a right to voice their reasonable doubts.

    No, it does not. Now, a reader can choose to VIEW it as an imposition, yes. And voice their reasonable doubts. Until recently, however, I haven't heard much voicing of "reasonable doubts," though. More like "shut up; we won't want to hear of this and you shouldn't be hearing posting about it." That is the truth of MY perception.

    Sometimes you assert things as fact that insult the intelligence of your readers.

    C... take a moment, if you will... and consider who MY "readers" are. And aren't. I almost always state who I am directing my comments to, especially if I start the thread. YOU... are not among my "readers." I mean, YOU assert that... over... and over... and over again. MY "readers" are rarely insulted, if ever, by what I post. To the contrary, YOU take issue that they AREN'T, but often agree! You, who repeatedly and consistently assert that you are NOT [among] "my" readers, then, are taking as directed at you things that aren't... and then assert that "your" intelligence is insulted. Which is it, though? ARE you one of [my] readers... or are you not?

    Thing is... I don't think you know. Let me help you: you ARE... but you don't WANT to be... and so you "feel" insulted. But that's on you, dear one, not me. If you don't WANT it... why READ it? It would be like me reading something the RCC is publishing to its readers and then saying it insulted me. It wasn't FOR me, so how can it insult me or my intelligence?

    If you modestly say "I believe that....." then who can object?

    Mmmmm... those like you who do. You don't care if there's an "I believe" or not. You would prefer it, because that let's you "believer" there might be opportunity for you to put some doubt in the mind of the one so stating, and perhaps ultimately get them to "see" as you do. And that's okay - their term "I believe" indicates that they're not sure. And if they're not sure, then you have every right to question their "beliefs"... even help THEM to question them. When one states that they KNOW, however, with regard to these things... then that causes YOU a problem: you cannot see an angle in where you might be able to cast doubt. But, C, that's the point: where there is true faith... because it is based on EVIDENCE... there IS no doubt. Such one CAN say they know and not just "believe."

    And besides, if I start lying to you about the little things, what's to stop be from lying about the larger ones? Nothing, I can think of. And yet, isn't that the slippery slope that "religion" leads to?

    I have to "stand fast"... in the truth, C. Which means not denying what I have heard/hear/seen and see... as TO the Truth, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). If I start lying about him... even to make others feel "comfortable", perhaps to "tickle" their ears so that they don't "feel" insulted (even when I've intended no insult!)... then I'm on the same path as many others: away FROM the truth... and thus away from the Truth. I can't do it, sorry. Not even for you.

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • cofty
    cofty

    Do you find it difficult to type the word Cofty?

    I will have a read and reply later

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    A couple of days ago I asked you twice in the same thread how you were defining religion. You declined to answer.

    Sigh. This isn't TRUE, C. I responded to you... twice, I believe. The first time I responded that my definition probably isn't your definition. Now, you might not LIKE that response, but it was a response - I did not ignore or overlook you. You asked again, and I believe I provided the following (but if not, here it is again, since I'm trying to be truthful):

    "... those systems and/or institutions of worship built up and led by MAN (i.e., humans, both male and female), whether due to a claim of following God, Christ, a deity or deities, any other entity or entities, or none at all, that are governed by certain creeds, doctrines, and/ or [organizational] “mission statements” created by man, which identify their members specifically, and are based on books (ancient OR modern), human traditions, human philosophies, and oral or written mantras, as I believe such are not only used to “gather” like-minded individuals to a common belief system but, ultimately, to control their beliefs and thoughts; that once an individual disagrees with some or all of such, they no longer “belong” and are often considered some manner of a “threat”... large OR small... to the “collective” and its overall way of thinking/believing."

    That is how *I* define religion.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • cofty
    cofty

    That's not a definition its a sermon about how everybody is wrong except you.

    Anyway what has that post to do with this thread?

    I will read your OP later.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Has to do with not wanting to start a new thread for each comment... as well as not wanting to derail other, pertinent threads.

    So, I will add this, as well:

    "in the abundance of words their does not fail to be transgression" - NWT

    Indeed.

    "For there is not a fine tree producing rotten fruit; again there is not a rotten tree producing fine fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For example, people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they cut grapes off a thornbush. A good man brings forth good out of the good treasure of his heart, but a wicked man brings forth what is wicked out of his wicked [treasure]; for out of the heart’s abundance his mouth" - NWT

    Perhaps, then, little in the heart sometimes results in little out of it, as well.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    That's not a definition its a sermon about how everybody is wrong except you.

    You asked me how did I define religion. I responded "probably not as you do." That didn't suffice, so you asked again how I defined religion. And so I responded with my definition. You denied both responses were made and deceitfully raised the issue again. And I've provide my definition... again.

    Now... you take issue with my definition (versus falsely accusing me of not responding). Of course, you do.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Here is where I'm coming from. You have shared a number of visions and personal revelations. I am 95% sure that you believe they come from your lord. I leave a little opening for the possiblity that you don't actually believe that, simply because this is the internet, and that must be a consideration. It's not personal, but it is a wise way to approach the internet.

    Now I am 99.9% sure that these revelations did not come from a god. Instead, a full list of possiblities go through my mind first. I will share them with you, WITH the understanding that I am not saying any of these pertain to you, but are simply things I consider.

    A hallucination. The cause of this hallucination can be one of many, or several of many. The list includes but is not limited to:

    Sleep paralysis (I have that, and I know EXACTLY how real it feels. Not only looks, but sounds, feels, smell etc)

    An organic mental disturbance. Bi-polar. Schitzophrenia etc.

    A physical disturbance--physical illness, nutritional imbalance.

    Disassociative vision---this is not physical, but where a person can disassociate and wish something so badly, they actually see it come true.

    A con---again, not accusing you of this, but it is on the list.

    Lucid dreaming.

    Repressed memories that are getting jostled.

    Again, none of this necessarily pertains to you, but this is how my brain works.

    Yet it is real to you. Okay.

    What disturbs me is when people accept these visions with no way to really check them out. I think it makes them vulnerable to many things. Yet I see it happening here all the time. They just take you at your word, and I don't think that is the right way to handle this. I don't think that you think so either.

    Then there is the substance of the visions. Dragons? To what end. I understand we are not talking about Camelot, so let's set that aside. You are expressing something and are limited by language, so you do your best. But to what end? How does such a thing enlighten? Why so long before it was brought to our attention? Why after hundreds of thousands of years of humans seeking, should this information be important to us now and not then? I think you will say that you do not know, but I have no way to check it out. I think you will say that we don't KNOW that this hasn't been revealed before, but again, we can say that just about anything that we don't know.

    That's how my brain processes this information, and it disturbs me to see others too willing to set all this aside and simply accept them. So I challenge them. I'm not diagnosing you or accusing you of anything, but it is responsible to consider all possiblities, and I would like to see others doing the same. There is a great deal of room for reasonable doubt here.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Here is where I'm coming from. You have shared a number of visions and personal revelations.

    Yes (and peace to you!).

    I am 95% sure that you believe they come from your lord. I leave a little opening for the possiblity that you don't actually believe that, simply because this is the internet, and that must be a consideration. It's not personal, but it is a wise way to approach the internet.

    You can be 100% sure of it. I more than believe it - I know it.

    Now I am 99.9% sure that these revelations did not come from a god.

    Okay. However, I am not disputing with YOU what YOU are "sure" of, dear one. Because (1) you are entitled to believe... or not believe...what you wish to; and (2) what you are sure of about the matter really isn't an issue with or of concern to me. I don't say that to be rude, truly. I say it to be honest.

    Instead, a full list of possiblities go through my mind first. I will share them with you, WITH the understanding that I am not saying any of these pertain to you, but are simply things I consider.

    No worries. I am all "ears"...

    A hallucination. The cause of this hallucination can be one of many, or several of many. The list includes but is not limited to:
    Sleep paralysis (I have that, and I know EXACTLY how real it feels. Not only looks, but sounds, feels, smell etc)
    An organic mental disturbance. Bi-polar. Schitzophrenia etc.
    A physical disturbance--physical illness, nutritional imbalance.
    Disassociative vision---this is not physical, but where a person can disassociate and wish something so badly, they actually see it come true.
    A con---again, not accusing you of this, but it is on the list.
    Lucid dreaming.
    Repressed memories that are getting jostled.
    Again, none of this necessarily pertains to you, but this is how my brain works.

    I understand. None pertain to me, so you can rest easy as to these. Truly.

    Yet it is real to you. Okay.

    It is, yes.

    What disturbs me is when people accept these visions with no way to really check them out. I think it makes them vulnerable to many things.

    I understand. Which is why I tell them... repeatedly... to NOT take my word for it... but to ask for themselves. Some do... and then they're okay about it all. Some don't... and so continue to have issues.

    Yet I see it happening here all the time. They just take you at your word, and I don't think that is the right way to handle this. I don't think that you think so either.

    I don't... which, again, is I why I tell them (and you) to NOT take MY word for it.

    Then there is the substance of the visions. Dragons? To what end. I understand we are not talking about Camelot, so let's set that aside.

    Are you SURE you understand that? I am not being "smart" or snarky - I just know that that's the only frame of reference most have and so it's difficult for some to move past "Camelot."

    You are expressing something and are limited by language, so you do your best.

    I admit that.

    But to what end?

    One, primarily: so that I no longer lie to others as to the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... which I did for many, many years. Because I didn't know the TRUTH about them. Now, I do. And so, I simply share that. So, I guess you could say the end... is truth. Even if that truth is hard for others to hear. I don't ask that anyone hear it, though: they can hear if they wish... or refrain. The choice is entirely theirs. Well, not entirely - it is also the choice of the One who grants them ears TO hear... which he does... for those why truly wish them. But that's another topic altogether...

    How does such a thing enlighten?

    Why do you think the purpose is to enlighten? Why do you not consider that it simply an effort on my part to dilute some of MY bloodguilt... for all of the lies I formerly told?

    Why so long before it was brought to our attention?

    I do not know, at least not in full. I only know partially why. What I DO know, though, partially... I am not permitted to share. Since it's not mine, I have to respect that.

    Why after hundreds of thousands of years of humans seeking, should this information be important to us now and not then?

    Dear NC... I am going to say this to you in ALL truth... and I truly hope you can receive it and not take offense: I think you misunderstand - it is not for "us". It is for the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with that House. That does not include everyone. I am sorry if that does not sit well with you, but I didn't make that truth. It is for those who are the New Covenant, those who are being called to have the Law written on their hearts, those with whom the MOST Holy One of Israel is concluding a NEW Covenant. Now, if you count yourself in among those of that House, then, yes... it is for you. If you do not... and everything you've ever posted on the matter tells me you do not... then you are misunderstanding as to "us." Again, I am not trying to be smart, smug, immodest, harmful, hurtful, arrogant, pious, judgmental... or any other word that I know will come (from others but not necessarily you). I am simply stating the truth.

    I think you will say that you do not know, but I have no way to check it out. I think you will say that we don't KNOW that this hasn't been revealed before, but again, we can say that just about anything that we don't know.

    I would not say the first, except that I only know partially and cannot reveal what I know... at least, not to those outside that House (and not even to some in it, but I have been permitted to reveal it to a few). I would say the second... but I wouldn't say that "we" don't know, although perhaps "you" don't.

    That's how my brain processes this information, and it disturbs me to see others too willing to set all this aside and simply accept them.

    Yes, but you ASSUME that's what others do... because all you see is what is posted on this board. Can you tell me, truly, that your posts are the sum total of you... what you believe... what you do... what you accept... your discussions with others... elsewhere, even outside the board? I don't think you can. I also don't think you're as concerned about such others as you think - indeed, you consider them infants, incapable of thinking, even critically, and just blind, dumb "followers." You (and others) think that... because of your OWN experience... because of what YOU saw and/or experienced with relation to one or more cults... and perhas at one time that is what YOU were... and so you ASSUME those who leave such cults... but don't leave God... are just repeating the pattern. And I get that - I am afraid for some who leave and do that, as well.

    I cannot convince you... or anyone... that this is different. Like those who relate to what I share, you (and they) must decide for yourself. But please don't blame me or accuse me of MAKING you... or anyone ELSE... DO... LISTEN to... READ... or BELIEVE... ANYTHING. There is a reason that such ones are vehement that they are not following me: because they AREN'T. And those that TRY to (and some sort of "needy" folks do try)... are told to cut it out. And I distance myself from them... because I am NOT their leader... or anyone's leader.

    If they want to follow someone, the ONLY One I can tell them to follow... is Christ. If they are capable of that, wonderful. If not, then they have a problem... because they can't follow ME. Because I myself am a follower... not a leader.

    So I challenge them.

    Dear one, I don't mind a challenge. But calling me names, hurling insults, falsely accusing me of impropriety, wrong motives, wrong actions, cultism, usurping another's (Christ's) leadership and authority, and, in some instances, even what amounts to ME as blasphemy... yeah, that I mind. Because it's untrue. Now, will I fight you with, say, my fists, a gun, sword, slander, or things like that? No, I would never. Will I respond? Yes, I just might. But with TRUTH, not with hateful propoganda.

    I don't fear "you." "You" fear me. Because "you" fear... what "you" DO NOT KNOW. Which is not MY fault - heck, I'm trying to TELL you. "You" don't know... because those who claim to know, who raised themselves up over "you"... and claimed to teach "truth"... to have the "truth", and in some instances to BE the "truth"... have NO clue what the truth IS. Because they don't know WHO the Truth is.

    I'm not diagnosing you or accusing you of anything,

    I know. I understand what you're trying to do: reason with me from a... non-belief... perspective. I get that and I take absolutely no offense at it. Were the shoes on the opposite foot, I might try to do the same thing as to you. Might not. I really don't know.

    but it is responsible to consider all possiblities,

    It is.

    and I would like to see others doing the same.

    Yes, but (1) how do you know they haven't, and (2) how is it MY fault if they have NOT? I am not stopping anyone from researching or looking into anything they wish to, need to. I am not the WTBTS GB. I LOVE learning... and wish ALL to learn. I have no rule, spoken or unspoken, where ones not only cannot read/research/look into anything... including what I share... nor do I have one that they MUST read what I post. Goodness, I even tell some to STOP reading, DON'T open my threads, etc.

    It's a free country, dear one... and for the Body, free-will is tantamount (not sure that's the right word, but it's late - I mean something near ultimate, if that makes sense). For me to try and "bind" that will... to make others do MY will... is not only ridiculous, but insane. Really, it's "YOU" folks (not you, NC, per se, but "you"... the opposers/usual suspects) who [try to] give me all that "power". "YOU" raise me up. "YOU" point more attention to me than I ever could. I post a discreet thread... and YOU all come to it, make all sorts of "noise"... post other threads talking about it... bring moderator and others attention to it. Point fingers... cry... yell... even scream... "YOU" do that. "You" have created a culture where folks here KNOW... there's gonna be a "Usual Suspects vs. AGuest" situation. On virtually every thread. No matter the topic. Sooner or later, one of "you" are going to bring my name up - even when I'm not here!

    Goodness, I left the board. Could I BE gone? Nope. Folks not only had to continue discussing me... but some even went and dug up old threads? Do you think, then, that I was responsible for putting the topics into folks minds afresh? Nope, wasn't me. But the result was GREAT for me - because not only did folks who previously saw them and viewed them positively see them again... but NEW folks saw them... and now NEW ones are saying, "I want to know MORE!"

    "YOU" create that "power" that "you" keep accusing me of trying to take.

    But I don't WANT it. I don't NEED it. Because I am just a servant. I know this, unmistakably.

    If you don't believe me... ASK them... any of them... those "you" accuse of following me. Ask them. And yet, they have tried to TELL you folks. But... you don't listen. You don't listen... because you don't respect them... OR their right to CHOOSE.

    There is a great deal of room for reasonable doubt here.

    And "you" are the ones who repeatedly attempt to stifle anyone's chance to even consider such. "You" tell them that they CAN'T choose anything other than what "YOU" say they SHOULD believe... or not believe. What makes "you," then, any different from the WTBTS?

    They are not running TO me, dear NC, as much as they are running away from the WTBTS... and ANYTHING that even closely resembles it. The way some of "you" treat them, however... makes "you" resemble the WTBTS. Even more than any other religion, cult, teaching, etc.

    It's one reason why I would never run to "you"... or your "side". Because, as some here often say: "If it LOOKS like a duck..."

    I hope this helps and, again, peace to you.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Are you SURE you understand that? I am not being "smart" or snarky - I just know that that's the only frame of reference most have and so it's difficult for some to move past "Camelot."

    My cut and paste isn't working properly, so I will only paste this part, and reference the rest. We REALLY need to set this aside. I am a writer. I understand the limitations of language. I make up things in my mind all the time, and really struggle with the language to try to explain it. So I DO understand this. Now we don't have to address it again, because we both understand.

    You cannot offend me by saying that I am not of the household of Israel, so let's set that aside. As to the rest---that this household WILL understand etc---that reminds me a great deal of the WT use of the scripture, "the sheep will hear my voice", and how we thought it had the 'ring' of truth. But we were wrong.

    As to name calling and propaganda and such, I'm not going to comment, because I think you mean those things for someone else. No need for me to get into that.

    I do not 'fear' you. I'm not sure where that comes from. . .

    Also, I have never told ANYONE that they MUST choose my conclusions. Now that is just nonsense. We have discussions. I challenge. I don't tell people what they can and cannot do.

    As to people checking into these visions you have, I know that some don't. I know that because I have had conversations with some. Some felt drawn, and weren't thinking critically. They are now though.

  • palmtree67
    palmtree67

    Cofty's last post on this thread dedicated to him, 10 hours ago:

    I will have a read and reply later

    FYI, everyone......

    Cofty isn't here yet.

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