You Won't be Resurrected.

by smmcroberts 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    You guys are superimposing modern ideas of how resurrection is supposed to take place vs the explanation that was used at the time when the Bible was written.

    Ancient Hebrews believed the tail-bone of the spine (Luz, what modern anatomists call the coccyx) was an important ingredient of Jewish resurrection, as well as the significance of the "living waters" associated with Jewish/Xian resurrection, baptism, etc. This concept was shared with other cultures, as a commonly-accepted belief of the period. You needed to have the coccyx, or else resurrection couldn't take place (and the coccyx could be destroyed permanently in the fires of Gehenna).

    Sorry for the formatting: the special characters (Greek, Latin, Hebrew) doesn't come across...

    (From JB Orian's Origins of European Thought About the Body, the Mind, the Soul, the World, Time, and Fate)

    @@@@

    Rabbinic tradition 3 taught that in the grave, while the rest of the body perishes, the lower end of the spine remains (known as Luz) which when the dew falls upon it will become a complete body again and live. Thus is solved the mystery of the Resurrection of the Body. Hell-fire (named from Gehenna) may now be seen to mean extremity in death, in that unhappy dryness (cf. p. 258, n. 5). It is contrasted with the water of life, which is with God (Ps. xxxvi, 9), coming out from his throne (Rev. xxii, 1, 17).4 So Dives' burning torment and need for water (Luke xvi, 24). In the judgement after death the reward of the righteous is the water of life, and the part of sinners 'shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death' (Rev. xxi, 6-9; cf. xx, i4f., vii, 17).

    Not less illuminating is the Mohammedan view. In the Koran we read that God created every beast from water'.5 Like the Rabbinic teaching is the doctrine that in the grave the earth consumes the whole of the body except the bone al Ajb, the bottom of the spine, which will remain till the blast of resurrection.6 ' For this birth the earth will be prepared by the rain above mentioned which is to fall continually for forty years and will resemble the seed of a man and be supplied from the water under the throne of God which is called living water; by the efficacy and virtue of which the dead bodies

    3 See e.g. the evidence collected by Pocock in his notes to Porta Mosis
    (portions of Maimonides), p. 117, and Kohler, Jewish Theology, p. 288.
    It is worth noting that this (Luz) was the tepdv ooreov (pp. 207 f.).

    4 Knowledge of this belief in the East explains Plaut. Trin. 940.

    5 Chap, xxiv, 44 (Palmer's translation).

    6 See Pocock, op. cit. pp. 255 f.


    THE WATER OF LIFE. BOILING 289

    shall spring forth from their graves as they did in their mother's womb or as corn sprouts forth by common rain, till they become perfect; after which breath will be breathed into them and they will sleep in their sepulchres till they are raised to life at the last trump.'* Then, when they are judged, those believers whose evil actions outweigh the good are said to be scorched for a time in hell, but, according to some, Mohammed taught that 'while they continue in hell they shall be deprived of life or (as his words are otherwise interpreted) be cast into a most profound sleep that they may be the less sensible of their torments; and that they shall afterwards be received into paradise and there revive on their being washed with the water of life'.2 Thus in this thought, that life is liquid, and the dead are dry we have found the reason for the widespread conception of a'water of life'.

    That water is life is nowhere more strikingly illustrated than in the actual experience of frogs in Mediterranean and similar climes. There is a hymn in the Rig Veda about their reawakening after the dry season: 'When the waters from the sky fall upon them as they lie like a dried skin in the (dried up) pond, the voice of the frogs rises in concert like the lowing of cows which have calves.'z This helps us to understand why the frog was a symbol of resurrection.


    1 Sale in 'The Preliminary Discourse' (to the Koran), Sect, iv (p. 65 in Warne's edition). Cf. irpcoTOTOKOs EK TCOV veKpcov, Coloss. i, 18.
    2 Sale, op. cit. p. 72.


    For both the Greeks and the Romans strength belonged to the procreative life-soul, 4A^(f|, genius (pp. 187 ff.). We have already seen reason in the Biblical, Rabbinic and other evidence to believe that for the ancient Jews the 'spirit' = life-soul was associated with the head, believed to be in the head (pp. 103, 144, 153, 183, n. 4), which saw visions, was prophetic (p. 103, where ^the visions of the head' were visions of the ruah, Dan. ii, 1, 28); also that it was on the one hand—in a sneeze2 (pp. 104 f.)—conceived of as of the nature of vapour, fitting the name ruah and its Greek version TrveOncc, and on the other hand conceived of as liquid identical with the seed or life-fluid in the head and spine (pp. 144, 188 ff., 234 f., 287). By this identification we explained the linking of death with sexual shame in the Fall (Gen. ii, 17-iii, 19 on

    1 E.g. Judges xiv, 6, 19; xv, 14. There is other evidence that vitality and strength were identified with the ruah. When the faint and strengthless are revived, their ruah returns to them. For example, when Samson, dying of thirst, had drunk,' his spirit (ruah) came again and he revived' (Judges xv,
    19; cf. I Sam. xxx, 12 with xxviii, 20, 22, etc.). Encouraging Jerusalem, Isaiah implies that 'spirit' means strength: 'the Egyptians are men, and not God; and their horses are flesh, and not spirit... and they all shall fail together* (xxxi, 3).

    2 It is interesting to find in the Rabbinic tradition possession conceived of as the entry of a spirit in the form of a small fly through the nostrils into the brain (see L. Blau, Dasaltjud. Zauberwesen, p. 160), with which we may compare the Arab story of the punishment of Nimrod by the sending of a fly through his nostrils into his brain so that' he wandered to and fro as a madman' (seeJ. Meyouhas, Bible Tales in Arab Folklore, p. 43). Josephus tells how Eleazer draws out the spirit from one possessed by putting to his nostrils a ring having beneath its seal a root indicated by Solomon (Antiq. Jud. VIII, 2).
    31-2


    484 IV. JEWISH CONCEPTIONS OF THE MIND, ETC.

    p. 109, n. 4) and the belief that it is the tail-end of the spine which grows into a new body in the Resurrection (pp. 126, n. 3; 208; 287 f.). We also saw that strength and vitality were identified with the procreative life-soul (='spirit') in the head and hair (pp. 234f.). Thus far the conception is almost identical with what we have traced as underlying the yu)(i*| and the Roman genius.

    The tail at the other end of the spinal marrow and associated with fertility by its hair (see pp. 130 f., 231 ff.) was also important. It consists largely of fat, the significance attached to which appears below (pp. 177, n. 9, 188 ff.). The tail-end of the spine was the * holy bone' for the Greeks (see pp. 208 ff.) and, as it were, the seed that grew into a new body according to Jews and Mohammedans (see p. 288). Such thoughts will explain why special value was attached to the tail of the October Horse, and to the liquid from it. See also p. 472.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    shocking. and I was so looking forward to it.

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    Gawdammit!...now what am I gonna do?

  • Branded Rebel
    Branded Rebel

    I understood that those who die AT Armageddon won't get a resurection because they would have died by God's own hand.

    I always understood that the scripture (can't remember where, but it's in the bible) that says 'All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out,' (I think it's in Job) refer to the fact that you WILL be resurected if you die BEFORE Armageddon...

    So, am I to believe that a clone of my loved ones is going to come back in their place? Damn! And here I was expecting a younger, healthier version. Oh well - might as well throw out the shoebox with all the young pictures of when my grandparents and parents were 30 or so I'd be able to recognise them, since I never knew them when I was young - I hadn't come into existence at that point of their prime. They are going to be totally useless to me now...

    Seriously?

    Where does some of this warped thinking come from? Who gives a rats about the WT. The bible is the only truth and I don't recall reading anything about transporters and molecular reconstruction when Lazarus was resurected by Jesus. That account as well as others in the bible should prove it can be done and that it's even possible for those resurected to marry (that is only my speculation of the human condition). The man Lazarus, who died, came back - memory in tact, looking the same, walking the same and I also can assume he went on to live out the rest of his natural life...The scriptures don't say otherwise.

    I don't mean to be rude, but I fail to grasp your line of reasoning based on what little bible knowledge I have. What you're saying does not ring true.

    Example being this:

    I was at a meeting where we were told to listen and believe everything the brother on the platform said - even if it went against what we already knew to be the truth. I got smart and raised a stupid question:- If you told us to go out and preach that the devil is our saviour, and I didn't do it, would I be branded as being disobedient, even though preaching that lie is a direct insult to Jehovah and Jesus Christ???

    The reply I got was - Yes, you would be disobedient and working against holy spirit because the brothers on the platform are ordained by God and are his spokes person/s...

    Um, that was the first time I realized that satan had worked his way into the congregations. I'm not the type of sheep that would willingly throw myself into the arms of a wolf, unlike many other gulliable 'sheep' in the congregation. Thus my branding of a rebel and the beginning of me leaving the org.

  • MrFreeze
    MrFreeze

    “Think of an experience from your childhood. Something you remember clearly, something you can see, feel, maybe even smell, as if you were really there. After all you really were there at the time, weren’t you?

    How else could you remember it? But here is the bombshell: you weren’t there. Not a single atom that is in your body today was there when that event took place .... Matter flows from place to place and momentarily comes together to be you. Whatever you are, therefore, you are not the stuff of which you are made. If that does not make the hair stand up on the back of your neck, read it again until it does, because it is important.” - Richard Dawkins

    Something to think about...

  • Hortensia
    Hortensia

    neither will you

    sorry buddy, no such thing as resurrection

  • Sulla
    Sulla

    The JWs generally teach the idea that you are your data. They dont like it, of course, when pressed because of exactly the problems outliend in the OP. Identity is generally thought to rely in some way on uniqueness or numerical distinction and, obviously, we can put my data into any number of places.

    The great advantage is that it allows the JW idea that people can be raised as either human or else non-human. The cost is merely in the absurdity of identifying the person with his data. JWs would be far better off simply being substance dualists, identifying the person with an immaterial soul -- then it wouldn't matter if you were a human or a spirit. But JWs hate anything that smacks of philosophy, especially if it's Greek.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    So I will continue to be "conscious of nothing" - I like being unconscious as it happens.

  • elderelite
    elderelite

    Sab is More of a genuis than i ever imagined! It all really comes back to star trek!

  • moshe
    moshe

    I hope the several trillion bacteria and viruses that call my body home get recreated, too. Otherwise my body just won't be able to operate correctly.

    Over the past 10 years or so, however, researchers have demonstrated that the human body is not such a neatly self-sufficient island after all. It is more like a complex ecosystem-a social network-containing trillions of bacteria and other microorganisms that inhabit our skin, genital areas, mouth and especially intestines. In fact, most of the cells in the human body are not human at all. Bacterial cells in the human body outnumber human cells 10 to one. Moreover, this mixed community of microbial cells and the genes they contain, collectively known as the microbiome, does not threaten us but offers vital help with basic physiological processes-from digestion to growth to self-defense.

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