Quoting out of context - ever justified?

by cognisonance 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Captain Obvious
    Captain Obvious

    WalkingHome Welcome to the board! How about an intro post?

    The WT has never been shy about misquoting experts' work. Almost every article about creation/evolution, and 607 will contain at least SOME misleading information. They are no better than the Christian Fundies who still believe the earth really was created in 6 days.

    They don't stop there, though. Having never taught the R&F to read the bible properly in context, scriptures are regularly mis-applied or taken WAY out of context in talks and discourses. He many times have you heard an OT text applied to the preaching work? Or heard Jesus' words applied to all Christians when he was clearly speaking to one person? Or my favorite, trying to apply a proverb (4:18 anyone?) as a prophecy for the last days. I realize that this thread is meant to discuss more recent works taken out of context, but if they are more than willing to misquote the bible which they respect above all others, should it be a surprise that they would abuse some worldly heathen's work?

  • cognisonance
    cognisonance
    Authority A :"The evidence does not support the suposition that a global flood engulfed the earth 4500 years ago. However we can prove localised flooding in the fertile crescent was a common occurence during that time period."
    This is just about OK: Authority A states that evidence shows flooding happened in the Bible regions during the time period we estimate the global flood to have happened.

    Hmm.. This one does seem it might be okay. It only says that flooding happened, not global flooding. But does that mean it is not qouting out of context, especially if we put this "quote" into a different context that it never intended to support to make this more like the Eldredge quote:

    Myth. A global flood never occured

    Fact. Authority A states that evidence shows flooding happened in the Bible regions during the time period we estimate the global flood to have happened.

    To date, scientists worldwide have studied geology extensively. Many researchers agree that this vast and detailed geological record can show that massive floods have happened and even when the flooding occured.

    So if we don't have a quote out of context here (and I'm still wondering if we do), then we at least have a Non sequitur, as the argument does not follow from the primise. That quote and associated argument does not prove a global flood happened, even though it would be used to do just that.

    So is the Eldredge quotation quoting out of context, or is it a Non sequitur? Now you have me wondering...

    (Either way it still is misleading and intellectually dishonet, is it not?)

  • Captain Obvious
    Captain Obvious

    Cognisonance

    Not sure if you got a proper welcome to the board or not, but.. Welcome! I think you will be a valuable member here.

  • breakfast of champions
    breakfast of champions

    One of the first things I learned in college was how to quote different sources: not only must you properly cite the source, you may only use it within the scope of the original text; in other words, you can't take it out of context and impose your own meaning upon it. And this was just in an English Expository Writing class!

    In fact, in one of my essays the professor felt I was stretching one of my citations too far and made me reword the paragraph.

  • cognisonance
    cognisonance

    Researching further I come to: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/quotcont.html. It makes the following point:

    In some sense, all quotation is out of context, but by a 'contextomy', I refer only to those quotes whose meaning is changed by a loss of context. The fallacy of Quoting Out of Context is committed when a contextomy is offered as evidence in an argument. Such fallacious quoting can take two distinct forms:
    1. Straw Man...
    2. Appeal to Authority...

    In this case, would the example in the previous post about "Authority A" represent a loss of context to the quotation? That lost context is the explicit statement that the evidence doesn't show a global flood occured at the time many estimate Noah's flood occured.

    In the Eldredge example, wouldn't the missing context be the highlighted information (underlined you'll find the quote):

    Here is another pattern that has great potential significance for understanding how the evolutionary process works – the subject of the next chapter: during the long intervals of time between environmental disruption, extinction, and the rapid subsequent development of new species, ecosystems and species themselves are remarkably stable. Little or no evolutionary change accumulates in most species during these periods of quiescence – a phenomenon not greatly remarked on by biologists until my colleague Stephan Jay Gould and I discussed it in the 1970s calling it stasis.

    So the quotation's context is talking about two senerios the long stasis, or periods of quiesence (inactivity), and the short periods of environmental disruption, extinction, and rapid speciation. This later period, which completes the pattern the auther is talking about is the "lost context" (the closest thing we have to this missing context is in the next paragraph of the JW brochure, but in a way that one is led to think that new forms of life suddenly came about in a way consistant with the idea of special creation, which it isn't). Without more context to the quote, or at least more explicit explaination of punctuated equilibrium, it is easy to use this quote to appeal to authority (see a scientist said this), and form a straw man (see he shows why the fossil record doesn't document macro-evolution). At least this is my take, though I'm leaving room for being wrong here. Anyone care to comment?

  • cognisonance
    cognisonance

    Not sure if you got a proper welcome to the board or not, but.. Welcome! I think you will be a valuable member here.

    Thanks. And yes you are the first to welcome me.

  • IsaacJ22
    IsaacJ22

    For me, quoting practices like these are simply unacceptable. Unless you're doing some sort of satire, there are no acceptable (or honest) reasons to hack and slash the source's original thoughts to pieces just so you can reassemble them in a way that suits your purposes. Certainly not without pointing out what you have done.

    Even the partial quote thing is, to me, way too slippery unless you clearly point out that you are quoting the half of the statement that agrees with you, then go ahead and quote the rest.

    If you don't point out what the full thought was, you are allowing the reader to think - because you implied it by omission - that the source agrees with you in full. This lends weight to your argument in the reader's mind; a weight that your argument doesn't deserve. As far as I am concerned, if you do this, you are cheating. ON PURPOSE.

    To me, this simply rings as an excuse and comes off as really underhanded.

    Also, putting the burden on the reader to fact you just isn't good enough. You're the author. Fact checking your work is your job, not mine. If I need to go to a library to check your facts and discover that your book isn't half as convincing as it seems, then you haven't done your job. Also, again, that's really underhanded. You gave me a presentation that made your work seem more convincing than it really was and used this as a lame excuse in case you got caught. I won't trust anything else you write ever again.

    To me, these are slippery excuses for twisting the truth to suit one's purpose. Nothing more. I remember a book by Al Franken - I think it was the Lying Liars book - that sort of lampooned the absurdity of claims like these.

    You can make mistakes, but even then, you own up to them once you realize what you've done.

  • cognisonance
    cognisonance

    Isacc, you are stating quite well how I feel about this. I also would like to comment on something you said.

    Also, putting the burden on the reader to fact you just isn't good enough. You're the author. Fact checking your work is your job, not mine. If I need to go to a library to check your facts and discover that your book isn't half as convincing as it seems, then you haven't done your job. Also, again, that's really underhanded. You gave me a presentation that made your work seem more convincing than it really was and used this as a lame excuse in case you got caught. I won't trust anything else you write ever again.

    The 2011 Yearbook had a section on "Tracing all things with accuracy" where it boasted about how much attention is given to using secular information in an accurate way, making sure that nothing unsubstantiated or untrue is used (i.e. they won't use Wikipedia, and will even cross-check what are often viewed as reputable sources). They will even go to the means of calling an original researcher to verify things as shown in the following excerpt of that section:

    Take, for example, the following statement in the brochure Was Life Created? about spider silk being one of the strongest materials on earth: “If enlarged to the size of a football field, a web of dragline silk 0.4 inch thick with strands 1.6 inches apart could stop a jumbo jet in flight!” Although the source for this statement was a reputable science magazine, it was not the original source, and the original source was ambiguous. Therefore, it became necessary to contact the researcher who made the original statement and check how he reached this conclusion. Our researchers also had to find the formula and the information needed to calculate for themselves what impact a jumbo jet might have on a spiderweb the size of a football field. Many hours of research and meticulous calculations eventually confirmed the accuracy of this astounding piece of information.

    All this to help JWs think that the information the WBTS prints is nearly perfect, and any mistakes will be few, and the ones that do get exposed will be abandoned in further publications. This later point they site an unsubstantiated Isacc Newton quote as an example, engendering this sense that any further mistakes will humbly be acknowledged that might exist today. Now, I realize they aren't talking about anytimes they have quoted out of context (and likely for good reason), but the average JW is going to have the sense of trust in the WBTS publications, that they are thoughly vetted and as accurate as possilbe.

    I refered to Carl Sagan's define misquote at the beginning of this thread and didn't get into it much. That quote I believe was in both the Creation book and Reasoning book. Here's the quote again:

    The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great Designer.


    The full quote and context is as follows (you can read it on google books here - note the underlined quote and the missing context which I highlighted for emphesis):

    Many people were scandalized – some still are – at both ideas, evolution and natural selection. Our ancestors looked at the elegance of life on Earth, at how appropriate the structures of organisms are to their functions, and saw evidence for a Great Designer. The simplest one-celled organism is a far more complex machine than the finest pocket watch. And yet pocket watches do not spontaneously self-assemble, or evolve, in slow stages, on their own, from say, grandfather clocks. A watch implies a watch-maker. There seemed to be no way in which atoms and molecules could somehow spontaneously fall together to create organisms of such awesome complexity and subtle functioning as grace every region of the earth. That each living thing was specially designed that one species did not become another, were notions perfectly consistent with what our ancestors with their limited historical records knew about life. The idea that every organism was meticulously constructed by a Great Designer provided a significance and order to nature and an importance to human beings that we crave still. A Designer is a natural, appealing and altogether human explanation of the biological word. But, as Darwin and Wallace showed, there is another way, equally appealing, equally human, and far more compelling: natural selection, which makes the music of life more beautiful as the aeons pass.

    The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great Designer; perhaps some species are destroyed when the Designer becomes dissatisfied with them, and new experiments are attempted on an improved design. But this notion is a little disconcerting. Each plant and animal is exquisitely made; should not a supremely competent Designer have been able to make the intended variety from the start? The fossil record implies trial and error, an inability to anticipate the future, features inconsistent with an efficient Great Designer (although not with a Designer of a more remote and indirect temperament).

    Okay so the quote is used in the Reasoning book under the heading, What does the fossil record actually show? Is Carl Sagan backing the idea that the fossil record supports special creation by God, and not evolution? It’s rather obvious he is saying the opposite in a quite sarcastic way. So why then use his quote to uphold the idea that the fossil record does not support evolution? This is blatantly a mistake. So has this inaccuracy been acknowledged, or at the very least, it's use abandoned?

    It certainly hasn't been acknowledged to JWs that this was an incorrect quote of Carl Sagan. They did appear to stop using this quote after the 80s, as it doesn't show up in publications since then (AFAIK). However, we are encouraged to use the reasoning book still in ministry (there was a part a couple weeks ago on the service meeting about how to use it with people that believe in revelation and Sagan's quote is in that section). A recent watchtower (w09 9/1 pp. 12-15) refers readers to the Creation (and Creator) books. So while Sagan's blantant misquote was never reused later (which seems to suggest to me that the WBTS knows it was misleading), two publications that utilize it are still current, active publications used by JWs for the purposes of recruitment and keeping existing members from doubting evoultion.


    Sidenote: Speaking of that meeting, The brother handling the part started his introduction with the something akin to the following:

    For many of us science may not be our strong point, or even something that interests us. Nonetheless, in the ministry, and in school, we will encounter people that do believe in evolution. He went on to say that it is important to draw common ground to understand exactly what the person believes, because after all there are so many different versions of what evolution is, for example some believe in theistic evolution, others in Darwinian evolution. If we can’t understand their background and then adapt, they might view us as being biased, or be biased against us even.

    After spending just a short time going over some responses in very limited fashion (this was just a 10 minute part including a demo) he encouraged everyone to not memorize these responses, but to use your own words. What should we do if a person wants to talk more in-depth? Well, don’t be shy, use the material referenced in the reasoning book, open it up and share it with the person.

    This part really frustrated me and makes me upset! First of all, if someone isn’t interested in science and doesn’t really know much about it, how can they tell someone else that a particular field of study in science is, well, not scientific, or the fossil record doesn't support evolution, etc?

    One time I tried the pull-out-the-reasoning-book approach when a householder wanted to get into the details about some subject. When I did this he stopped me and said, "I want to know what you think, not what one of your books has to say." That reply made a lot of sense to me. It certainly didn’t sound open-minded and reasonable to answer with something along the lines of, “well my thoughts are not going to be any different than what is found in this book.” I didn’t give that answer, even though that pretty much is what I thought at the time. I couldn’t give that answer because it sounded so, well, unreasonable, even cult-like, to an outsider. Now though, I can't say anymore that my thoughts are the same as those in the Reasoning book. Yet, I'm sure many JWs today feel like I did in the past. I find it very poignant that many are being mislead about certain things, evolution being one of them.


  • Kudra
    Kudra

    The best quotes out of context are the ones that they do at the end of This American Life.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    -

    Quoting out of context is never a good idea.

    However, to quote a particular finding of a given authority who otherwise disagrees with your ultimate conclusions is not quoting out of context.

    In a logical argument a given premise can lead to alternate conclusions based on other premises used in a different argument. Hence a particular finding of a given authority can support that authority’s conclusion and your divergent conclusion if that finding (premise) is combined with different premises in a sound argument. This might sound confusing to untrained readers, but it’s very often the case that a given premise can lead to conflicting conclusions the result of two (or more) logical arguments combining that premise with different pieces of information (premises).

    When alternate conflicting conclusion are achievable then the analysis shifts to close examination of each premise in each argument to determine its veracity. Sometimes alternate conclusions cannot be eliminated as possibilities. In this case analysis shifts to the probabilities of each premise used in each argument to see if one conclusion is more likely than another.

    When Watchtower writers quote particular findings by outside authorities and then use those findings as premise in an argument of Watchtower’s construction the question of honest portrayal boils down to two things. 1) Is the finding presented as the outside author asserts it and 2) is Watchtower’s argument otherwise sound (meaning other premises are valid and the argument form is logical).

    Marvin Shilmer

    http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com

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