If Russell Were Alive Today He'd Be DF'd For

by Dutchie 55 Replies latest jw friends

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  Justin

  Just a point about Russell and Jesus as Mediator:

  Like the WT today, Russell taught that Jesus could only be the "mediator" in a covenant relationship between God and his people. One would think that Russell would teach that all Bible Students were under the New Covenant because they all had the heavenly calling back then. But this was not the case. Particularly from 1909 onward, Russell taught that the New Covenant would be initiated with natural Israel after Armageddon - that the Church was never under the New Covenant. (Some scholars claim Russell always believed this, but merely re-emphasized it in 1909. The original prophecy about the new covenant, in Jeremiah 31, does appear to have a Jewish context.)

  So, Russell reasoned, if the Church is not in the New Covenant, Jesus could not be the mediator for the Church. (Instead, he would be the "intersessor.") Well, this caused quite a stir, as there were Bible Students then who were just as offended at the thought of Jesus not being their mediator as some of the "other sheep" are offended today. This resulted in what is known as the "New Covenant Schism" - the breakaway from the WT of Bible Students during Russell's own lifetime to form a separate group. These people's descendants are still around today as the "Free Bible Students," and they stopped using the SCRIPTURE STUDIES way back then!

  Of course, today the WT teaches that the spiritual Israel (the Church, the anointed class) is under the New Covenant, that natural Israel will not be restored after Armageddon, and that the majority of the current JW's (who are "other sheep") are still not under the New Covenant. What has remained consistent is the reasoning that the mediatorial role of Jesus only exists within a covenant, and that those not in the covenant have a different legal relationship to Jesus, and hence to Jehovah.

  Justin
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  Beck_Melbourne

  Russell would not have been disfellowshipped...he would have disassociated himself instead. He is only the founder...he is not the one who is behind all the changes to the development and structure of the borg in its form today.

  Russell would have been reluctant to accept the 'new light' changes and he would have left and been classified an "apostate"!!

  Beck
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  ozziepost

  I'm with Beck on this one! Russell would not be DF because he was NEVER a JW. He was averse to starting a new religion or denomination or whatever. Bible students met for group Bible study but they could also attend churches. The organisation (the Bible Students) that he 'founded' retains the old Watchtower volumes. That's one of the reasons why they are unobtainable from the WTS. The WTS was appropriated by Joe Ratherflawed and turned into Jehovah's Witnesses, the name he chose. That's something the modern-day Witnesses have to live with because he got it wrong. Jesus said quite clearly "You will be witnesses of ME", so the name he chose, if they had to have a name, should have been Jesus Witnesses.

  Cheers,
  Ozzie

  "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

  
  - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress
• 

  wokeup

  Justin, Rutherford also taught,excuse me, the faithfulofit and undiscreet slave taught that "Christ Jesus is the Mediator between man and God to bring man into reconciliation with God. The new creature in Christ is not under,nor the offspring of,any covenant that is mediated by Christ Jesus" ....Reconciliation pg.222 1928
  As we know his successors later made a 180 degree turnaround and that's the truth ...89W 8/15 pg.30,31
• 

  Fredhall

  AlanF,

  Have you ever thought that you might be in spiritual darkness?
• 

  RR

  I'd like to address some issues here. Whether you believe me or not is not important.

  Russell was totally against organization. He believed once a church was organized, it became a part of Babylon. Was the Watch Tower organized? Yes, but in Russell's own words, it was just a business, a publishing house. It did not dictate to the Bible Student congregations.

  In fact is, most of the Bible Students congregations were not even organized, and by that I mean few were registered as non-profit religious organizations, because they felt it was kin to writing their names on the books of Babylon.

  If Russell were alive today, not only would he not recognize the world, he wouldn't even recoginze the Watch Tower he founded. In fact the Organization's he founded do not exist. The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, was reorganized to "Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylavania." The People's Pulpit Association was reorganized to Watchtower Bible and Tracts Society of New York. Even the Watch Tower magazine was changed to "The Watchtower."

  ofcmad, Russell did not smoke!

  Dutchie, yes, Russell was "hard" on his beliefs, but he never stated it was etched in stone. He was not in charge of the 1,500 congregation worldwide. And those who worked with him at Bethel were allowed to have differences of opinion.

  Russell never claimed to be that FDS, you will never find it in his writings. He did teach that it was all footstep followers of Christ, then upon re-examination he taught it was one individual. But never stated "I am he." It wasn't until AFTER his death that Rutherfod began putting those thoughts into the minds of the Bible Students. So if anyone was guilty of "creature worship" or making an idol of Russell it was the Society itself under Rutherford.

  Jerome, on the contrary, and this has been discussed before, Russell never claimed to be a Mason in fact he denies ever being one or ever knowing much about them. You may want to see Kent's site for some information about that.

  ThiChi, the Society no longer own the copyrights to Russell's works, they are now public domain. They reference them only when it suites them. Notice when they do refer to them, they do not have a footnote stating "*Published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society." However the Bible Students continue to publish his writings [. http://www.biblestudents.net]

  butalbee, Russell never had an affair. He couldn't have, he was a virgin. By his own mouth he admits that his marriage was not consummated. This was the agreement between he and his wife as they wanted to focus on the Lord's work. Such marriages were popular in those days.

  As to Rose Ball, she was their "adopted" daughter. She married Ernest C. Henninges And moved to England, then Australia, where he served as branch manager of the Watch Tower. They split in 1909 over the New Covenant, and published a journal. In all that time from 1909 to 1944 when it ended. They mention Russell twice. NEVER did she ever claim Russell abused her or handled her inappropiately. In fact, their disagreements were merely doctrinal. They loved and respected the man, just didn't agree with him in certain points. If they wanted to do damage, they could have, but there was no damage to do, because it wasn't true.
• 

  jerome

  I have some "New light" for RR.

  Russel never claimed to be the FDS

  well...I'm not to sure about that.

  You will never find it in his writings

  I dont know if he expressed this belief in his writings but others close to him sure did.

  Let me shine some light on the situation.

  Did Russel claim to be the FDS?

  "Thousands of the readers of Pastor Russell's writings believe that he filled the office of 'that faithfull and wise servant', and that his great work was giving to the Household of Faith meat in due season. his modesty and humility precluded him from proclaiming this title, but he admitted this much in private conversation."
  (WT 12/1/16 p 357)

  There you have it.

  He admitted as much in private.

  If this is true he thought he fulfilled a Bible prophecy.

  RR may still be right though because this was 2 years after his death. So sombody could have been captiolizing on his status.
  There are other quotations which suggest that he thought that he was the FDS but I think that is enough.

  I'm sure that you will take my word for it.

  I highlited the word humility because I think (it is only my opinion)
  that he was not a very humble man. This was in my opinion just a ploy to paint a positive picture of C.T.R by the person who wdited that issue of the Watchtower.

  I have come to this view through viewing trial transcripts from his divorce.

  I think his wife accused him of pediopheila.
  Please correct me if I am wrong.

  jerome

  Edited to say that it was suggested that he was the FDS after his death.

  The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.
• 

  RR

  Okay, you are corrected. You are wrong. Russell's wife NEVER accused him of pedophilia. I too have the court transcripts, ALL four of them.

  As to the issue of the FDS. I knew someone would bring up that quote. The fact remains, he never admitted it. He never claimed. "I am the faithful and wise servant." As stated before, reading the Watch Towers between 1917 and 1925 one would see in just about every issue, some sort of idolizing of Pastor Russell. Why is that? Because Rutherford knew he ursurped the authority of the directors to become head honcho, he had to do something to appease the Bible Students. He was fast losing his support. In the end, he decided to "kill" the monster he created. reorganized the Society, theologically and organizationally. He purged every last member faithful to Russell within Bethel. And started out fresh with a skeleton crew. It has been estimated that 75% of the original Bible Students had defected. But no problem, he'd rather have a small faithful following than a large not so faithful following. With that small band of drones, he could take over the world, and he did and lived like a king. But then this is about Russell and not Rutherford, right?
• 

  sunscapes

  Personally, I think Fred Hall, Yo Yo and You Know are all the same entity.
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  hooberus

  Russell when he was ALIVE published several letters in his Watchtower magazine from others praising Russell as the FDS. If I start a religious magazine today and publish letters from others praising me as being "The Faithfull and Discreet Slave" would't this infact be claiming it myself?