Let's Discuss Ray Franz's Books

by Recovery 131 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  leaving_quietly

  @Recovery,

  I'm in a similar position that of The Searcher. I began to question, not the Bible, but the teachings of the org that go well beyond the scriptures. I started to notice blatant contradictions, misquotes of secular sources, a side-stepping of certain verses, and sometimes, just plain untruth. An example: look in the My Book of Bible Stories at the picture of Lot and his daughters fleeing. Notice that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt while still fleeing. Now read the account in the Bible. When does the Bible say she was turned into a pillar of salt? The society has encouraged us to read the Bible daily. That's exactly why I started to see these things. I still read the Bible several times a week, and when given the opportunity to read in in large chunks, things start to click that never did before just by reading a verse here and a verse there (even the Bible Highlights fails to provide satisfaction because one must want to be in a mindset to read and understand, not be forced to do so.)

  I did read Franz's CoC, reluctantly. It was an interesting read, but I can't say it influenced me in either direction. He did not set out to prove JWs wrong. He simply told his story, the way he was treated by his peers on the GB, how he felt it like a mock trial, and he exposed some of the goings on behind the scenes. Objectively, I can only say this is his side of the story. We don't have, and never will have, the other side ( thought the copies of correspondance are compelling.) Therefore, I take it with a grain of salt. I would much rather continue my Bible study and let the Bible speak for itself. Unfortunately, the society does not like people like me, The Searcher, or many others on this forum. In print, we are invited to read, do deep study and meditation, but in reality, if we show a Berean-like attitude, just searching with a desire to prove things true, but discover otherwise, then we are shunned and labeled as apostates if we dare open our mouths. Many here have a deep love for God and Christ. But some things just don't have the ring of truth anymore after reading the scriptures in context for ourselves.
• 

  blindnomore

  but instead flaunting and promoting their private interpretations of the Bible. So yes, I have to set rules because the members of this board are simply too immature to engage in a discussion and bring up real scriptural objections but instead they will do anything to discredit JW's regardless of what the facts show.

  Recovery, To whom interpretation of the Bible belong to? A private person like Fred Franz? Would you like to learn some factsabout Franz' private interpretation of the Bible? Check this out!

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/211576/1/Who-wrote-the-May-22-1969-Awake-article-What-Future-for-the-Young

  Oh, I've learned from the COC that Jehovah's Witness elders methods of black mailing, character assassination, and witch huting are from their leaders. I was stunned by the methods used by the Governing Body to crush Ray Franz and others. Some 30 years later the very similar thing happened to me and my family. It was the most inhumane treatment I've ever experienced. I thought it only happening here locally.
• 

  The Searcher

  @leaving_quietly

  Sadly, you are telling a 100% truth about doing Bible research. We are already warned in the September 2007 KM, not to do research in groups. (like the Beroeans) The truth is not afraid of scrutiny - it welcomes it!!

  When I answer at the meeting, I try to plant 'seeds' which may grow in some minds. I stopped answering parrot-fashion according to the literature, a long time ago.

  However, I also inject little Bible truths into private conversations with a select few whom I feel are receptive.
• 

  The Searcher

  @ RECOVERY

  As a brother, don't be afraid to discuss the Scriptures; but I do promise you, the truth does hurt at first - a lot!!

  Once I'd researched the truth about the Romans 6:7 lie, one falsehood after another surfaced.

  If you're happy in your own little 'spiritual paradise', (another myth) then I wish you well when the time comes. However, no one will be able to say they didn't know, or they were misled - we all have the Scriptures with the warnings recorded for our benefit.

  When you allow others to interpret Scriptures for you, you are then relying on their interpretation!!

  If you don't wish to discuss any teachings whatsoever, at least test one doctrine on your own; using the Watchtower CD ROM, type in 'sons' 'children' and 'brothers'. Then only use the Bible to see who are really God's sons & Christ's brothers.

  I hope you do.
• 

  slimboyfat

  No one owes you arguments or reasons for disbelieving the Witnesses. If you want to go on believing it that's your privilege.
• 

  DATA-DOG

  Recovery in not ready to hear anything but his own inner monologue. As the old chinese proverb says " Your cup has no room for my tea young man, as it is already full. " You can't teach something to someone who already knows it all.
• 

  binadub

  Recovery:

  as long as it somehow proves Jehovah's Witnesses are not God's people.

  It is not for us to prove the negative, it is for you to prove Jehovah's Witnesses ARE God's people.
  Most JW doctrines can be disproved with simply proving what IS true (proving the positive).

  Why do YOU believe Jehovah's Witnesses ARE God's people?That is what I would like to know and what I would be interested in discussing.

  I personally do not believe you are ready for Franz's books. I would suggest you read Steve Hassan's book "Combatting Cult Mind Control", which has nothing whatsoever to do with Jehovah's Witnesses. It's about the Moonies. If you understand that treatise, then perhaps Ray Franz's books would mean something to you.

  P.S.: You didn't respond to my particular comments about the meaning of "Who Is the Wise Servant if it's not JWs" that pointed out it is simply another parable about wise servants versus evil servants--not a prophecy as the WT teaches--so I'll be surprised if you respond to me here. ;-)

  ~Binadub
• 

  Finkelstein

  I think its safe to say that even though Ray Franz was at one time at the top of this religious organization, he eventually too realized

  as many others realized that the WTS. was an inherent fraud from its core operative source, the lead editorial writers of this publishing house.

  Also that most of the WTS's doctrines were intensionally established toward making a deceptive commercial appeal presented to the public,

  in proliferating its own published works.

  Is it so surprising then after 100 years or more that none of the WTS. doctrines have come true, certainly not in a intellectually honest sense .

  This organization's power was accumulated by men who were seeking their own self empowerment, such as individuals as J Rutherford and C T Russell,

  as head of this ever evolving religious publishing house.

  This is also where, when, how and why the foundation of its core corruption was laid, as it still exists to this day.
• 

  Finkelstein

  If Recovery wants to debate some of R Franz's accusations as toward nullifying the legitimatize of the JWS/WTS

  being god's chosen earthly organization, by using the bible, then let him present a pointed argument.

  This is what open debate is all about, frankly I'm quite interested and intrigued to what supportive argument he can come up with.

  But again somewhat redundant when this person hasn't completely read the book " Crisis of Conscience "
• 

  dazed but not confused

  Let's discuss ray franz's books. How do you discuss a topic you clearly know nothing about? Read COC and then you can discuss. Its, as others have pointed out, a story of his time in bethel. Not the all-powerful, WT crushing arguments, that lead so many to leave JW's and become ruthless opposers of God's people as you have put it. I am only about 100 pages in – thank you Deist for letting me borrow it, I will get it back to you as soon as I finish- and it is not what you clearly think it is. It discusses, among other things, the organizations corporations practices ray saw first hand. I look forward to finishing it and I recommend you read it too.

  Try and be a little more intelligent when starting a topic. You will find a very small group who post here to be complete assholes, but the majority are here to assist you on breaking free or at the very least letting you know their experiences. Try not to be among the condescending assholes.