Interesting discussion with some Witnesses at my door today

by jwfacts 59 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Healthworker

    Thanks for sharing, Paul!

    I agree with you. The choice of religion is based on where one is born. I therefore believe that doctrine does not matter much. Jesus said that our salvation would depend on how we treated other people, if we showed them love, gave them, food, water, shelter, nursing etc. Math 25:31-46. So, everyone has a conscience no matter what religion. That is my only reason to believe in combination with the complexity of our body. After my study of anatomy, I therefore keep the possibility open towards intelligent design , still respect others views and would not argue!

    You write:

    "I asked if he had researched the formation of the Bible Canon. He is asking if I believe the Bible, yet Catholics, Protestants and Egyptian Coptic all believe the Bible to be composed of different books"

    Can you provide a list of which books that are included in the different versions.

    Besides I have sent you a PM!

    Best regards your bro Healthworker

  • flipper

    JW FACTS- You handled that very well. Especially by keeping your calm demeanor. It's obvious by your account that the man is totally mind controlled and certain electrical brain impulses are not working connecting the synapses in his mind. I mean that literally . He's been so mind controlled by the WT society rhetoric that he " shuts down " his brain to anything you were trying to say to him. To the point where he insults you- but due to his mentally " dissociative disordered " state, he's not aware he's insulting you. They are like robots. Programmed without emotions, just devoted to WT society causes. Really sad. You did the best you could. I hope their children exit the JW cult in time

  • DaCheech

    I still remember the day I was doing territory across the street from a cemetary, and the householder told me (after asking him where he wanted to be after dying) that he wanted to end up across the street!

    As loyal Jws, we are told to listen to the householder, but at the same time we DO NOT LISTEN!

    This guy is probably gonna draw a blank tomorrow.............. maybe in a couple of years he might add 2 and 2 correctly

  • moshe

    Most JWs see no viable options for a free life outside of the KH and as OutLaw has pointed out, you can't reason with a fencepost--

  • whathappened

    Great story. Hopefully a bell was rung today in jw land.

  • kepler


    Thanks for the account. I had often been curious how either side of the debate should address the issue of living on paradise earth forever in light of the fact that most conditions in God's creation are not perpetual (save perhaps half lives for particles such as protons). And as you point out in particular - the sun.

    To many who are close to me, I get the impression that they are looking forward to enjoying here on earth a perpetual corporate picnic with some of their relatives. While some might be "sisters" and "brothers" ( and others not JWs are consigned to other fates), it is obvious that they would not want to be stuck in an elevator with them for several minutes, much less a billion years. And I have never known of anyone's holiday with family that didn't need an eventual break.

    But whether one believes in another plane of existence after life in this plane or not, there seem to be a lot of negating evidence to weigh against the inferences from a garden incident in chapters 2 and 3 of Genesis, Isaiah's verses about lions and lambs, and the notion that dead who are asleep will "awake" and walk about as before only with a greater degree of perfection. The geological record tosses in our faces records of carnivores on earth for ages past. The account of creation in chapter one is in discord with chapter 2. Our knowledge of stars is that they are born and die - and we can watch the process in the sky even now. The Hertzsprung Russell color and brightness diagram of star clusters is simply a snapshot of which ones are still alive and which ones have passed on in regions of the sky where they came to be at closely the same time. The Watchtower handouts neither account for food chains in the environment or the sources of solar energy. Are we to believe that the whole cosmos was transformed and handed over to Satan because of an account about a serpent and a tree?

    While the sun might continue to produce helium from hydrogen for another several billion years, as the process is understood, even as it has done so it is getting hotter. When it started its main sequence combustion over four billion years ago, it was perhaps 20 or 30% less luminous. A billion years from now the Earth would certainly be much hotter - unless other provisions are made such as it becoming further removed. And what of the moon which is slowly drifting away? Will once it escapes come back and collide or will providence watch over that too? Will the seas and water cycle continue to function without fauna devouring fauna? In eternity will all these things be attended to by God, by 144,000 elect in heaven or by those to remain on Earth forever?

    In the last week I had a similar encounter to the one you describe, but I confess it was of my own making. I was aware that groups of senior JWs from local KHs stop off at the same coffee house where I am now typing out this post on wi-fi. Since I had continued to be concerned about verses that had placed a divide in my house and family I went over and asked these individuals engaged in field service about several lines in Jeremiah - 25:8-11 to get us on track, and then 25:12 that follows. The first was cited as evidence that a 70-year desolation on Jerusalem had been invoked by God, and the next verse stated that an immediate permanent desolation would be put into effect on Babylon. I cited historical evidence that the second statement was untrue: that Babylon remained an important center for the Persians repeatedly cited in history and it was Alexander's intended capital, the place he eventually died in the 320s BC.

    The most senior of the elders acted as spokesman. He said he was not familiar with the passages, but said that "we" take the Bible as our source for truth over all secular sources of information. And, of course, it was understood by all, that since I questioned the authority of a given verse, that I was questioning belief in God or his word.

    My immediate reaction to this was, if statements from the Bible were offered as proofs, then why are they not allowed any test?

    Before we resolved any of this, we went on to other issues. I asked that if there had been an early general apostacy in Christianity ( and they said that it occurred right after all the original apostles had died), then how could it be that the Bible would be compiled by deliberations among apostates several centuries later? They assumed that the books had always been obvious; and that it had never been a matter of choosing among books or scrolls claiming "Yes, I knew Jesus Christ..."

    I asked, what about a books like the Maccabees vs. Daniel or Isaiah? The elder simply declared: I know nothing of the Maccabees and it is not part of the Bible. " If you no nothing of it, then how do you know it has no bearing? Are you not simply using a traditional Protestant canon. How is it that you can cite Daniel who provides dreamy 2nd century BC prophecies and errors in other matters, but straight accounts of the 2nd century events must be disregarded?

    Shortly it was apparent that everyone on that side of the table had had enough. But it was only later that I realized that their belief in the literal inerrancy of the Bible, as is often the case, had placed them in a difficult corner from which to extract themselves. Verses from Ezra (e.g., 8:1) and Nehemiah strongly support Babylon's continued existence.

    Ezr 8:1 These [are] now the chief 7218 of their fathers 1 , and [this is] the genealogy 3187 of them that went up 5927 with me from Babylon 894 , in the reign 4438 of Artaxerxes 783 the king 4428.

    Neh 13:6 But in all this [time] was not I at Jerusalem 3389 : for in the two 8147 and thirtieth 7970 year 8141 of Artaxerxes 783 king 4428 of Babylon 894 came 935 I unto the king 4428 , and after 7093 certain days 3117 obtained I leave 7592 of the king 4428 :

    Ezr 6:1 Then 116 Darius 1868 the king 4430 made 7761 a decree 2942 , and search 1240 was made in the house 1005 of the rolls 5609 , where 8536 the treasures 1 596 were laid up 5182 in Babylon 895 .

  • jgnat

    Am I imagining things? I thought KS asked about the books of the various canons. I found an easy-to-read chart, here:

  • Scott77

    "...I couldn't answer any of his questions without the WT. I spoke to an elder and he told me he knew that man and said he was an opostate. Years later when I started waking up and researching the "truth", this call came back into my mind and I plan at one point to return and thank him for starting the alarm bell ring in my mind. Hopefully the witnesses that came to your door will one day remember you as I remembered him."

    Hope this experience from NVR2L8 becomes a reality for this misguided family. Good job Jwfacts.


  • cedars

    Thanks Paul, I really enjoyed reading that. I can imagine it must have been quite a surreal experience for you. It sounds as though you handled it well, and you may have given them food for thought (hopefully at least the wife). It sounds like there was a lot of cognitive dissonance on show from the father, who was playing his role the only way he knew how, and trying to overcome your objections even though he didn't really understand what they were (or want to contemplate them). I can also relate to your feeling of almost not wanting to shatter their illusions. I feel the same way when speaking with my father. Anyway, well done.


  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    jwfacts said:

    I actually felt sorry for them. How can you want to try to take away such happy delusion. The couple were very well spoken and came across as intelligent, and I imagine he was an elder. Yet here is a man that had little comprehension of religion, or anything I said, yet shrugs it off and still makes out like I am wrong but not to worry as God will take me back, provided I return to his religion.

    Yeah, that's exactly what I felt for the last JW I encountered (who walked up to ME at a Starbucks), as it was clear their heart was in the right place, but they were simply misguided into spending time on what are ultimately wasteful and destructive actions, that actually get them or no one else anywhere, and even worse, HEAVILY handicaps them from taking care of themselves and their future by thinking beyond Armageddon (i.e. funding their own retirements).

    I don't feel guilty in the least for shattering their "happy delusion", since it IS a delusion, and delusions don't last. Besides, people don't automatically become evil wife-beaters/gamblers/smokers/child abusers when they leave the JWs: that's another JW myth we all unconsciously share, I think...

    That guy has alot of serious thinking to do: it's time for him to stand thinking like a man, and put away the foolish thoughts and desires that are more age-appropriate for his son.... Sounds like you gave him much food for thought.

    PS you should find which territory you're in, and mail in a time sheet to the KH for the time you logged in what they'd no doubt call, "field disservice", LOL!

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