Evidence For Impending Change Re: "Loose Conduct" to "Brazen Conduct"

by DarioKehl 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jws

    The tougher they get, the more they DF, and then who's left? I don't have any facts whatsoever to back this up, but my opinion would be once you're disfellowshipped, there's a good chance you don't come back. At least there's a lot better chance than if you're a JW in good standing because what have you got to lose?

    They aren't exactly growing. They need strategies to retain people.

    "Sins" that are usually not known don't need to be flushed out and punished. If somebody is masturbating, or flirts in some chat room, who's gonna know? How can it cause other people to stumble over something they don't know about? All they do is make that person feel guilty until they come and confess. And then they might get DFed and leave for good.

    The thing they need to do is stop the bleeding and "apostacy" seems to be a big cause, at least from the perspective of sites like this. Nitpicking other things isn't going to stop that. Unless they make the internet brazen conduct.

    Could be one of those terms that's ambiguous enough that they can toss anything they want into that category to enforce a ban. Facebook? Brazen. Internet? Brazen. Marlmalard? Brazen. Neidermeyer? Brazen. Oops, got caught up in Animal House. I guess watching that was a bit brazen.

  • TheOldHippie

    I wouldn't overdo or overplay or as much as you do, DarioKehl - the fall could be a very deep one. There is nothing new to this, and your comments on being df'ed because of coming too late to the meetings - please come down to earth, please don't grind your axe too much, lest it disappears completely.

  • rip van winkle
    rip van winkle

    Sulla said- Does anyody think the Wt thinks they should have more disfellowshippings? Not buyin' it. They already DF whomever they want and it doesn't seem necessary to increase that rate.


    I AGREE with Sulla. And with jws comment - once you're disfellowshipped, there's a good chance you don't come back.


    I could see them down-grading a meaning to keep more from leaving. Also, if it was a change in loose-conduct to brazen- why would they have recently called the special elders school? The programs for the DC are prepared a year? in advance. If that was the change- wouldn't it have been part of the planning preparation? Wouldn't a new bible have been released at this years convention?


    Also, what had been mentioned on "Updating the NWT again" posted by Nicsfreedom-

    "I could not believe my ears when my father told me recently that his circuit overseer (2 weeks ago) said that there are 5 scriptures that the society is going to revise."


    Personally, as I said on Nicsfreedoms thread- I think the change is to the 2 Witness rule. There are 5 scriptures that pertain to it- Deut 17:6 ; Deut 19:15;Matt 18:16; 2Cor 13:1; 1 Tim 5:19. And the WTS were completely blind-sided by the Candace Conti verdict. And wasn't the lawsuit only filed this year?

    Remember, before filing a law-suit, Candace approached the elders about changing policy regarding pedophiles. Because she didn't have another Witness to corroborate her accusation they didn't want to listen.(Correct me if I'm wrong) They wouldn't listen to her without their being another person to testify that they saw her sexually molested as a 9 year old child. (As if a pedophile is going to sexually abuse someone in front of an eye-witness)

    That's my reasoning at work. But, obviously, as a person who became a JW and willingly chose to be a JW, I've been wrong about things before!!!

  • steve2

    Is that "brazen" as in " brazen hussy" ? If brazen replaces "loose" iit might succeed in bringing an element of defiance into people's sinning. For example, exhibiting brazen conduct seems more sinful than "merely" exhibiting loose conduct.

  • Pistoff

    If it is a change to the 2 witness rule, that is good news for victims.

    But it is ridiculous.

    Why should a 'religion' that is global have to be sued in open court and lose big in order to 'realize' that the rule is wrong headed and encourages perpetrators??

    That rule, requiring 2 witnesses to child sexual assault, is what took me out the door for good.

    Once I realized that the same men who approved that policy also wrote articles about morality, doctrine and prophecy, I was done.

  • OnTheWayOut

    "Now, we've had additional understanding on this scripture.

    That's buzzwords for "I am reminding y'all that WE, the Governing Body, are being contacted by Holy Spirit." When it's convenient, they want people to feel they are just like the inspired prophets.

    Why would Jehovah spend so much time clarifying the English version of His ancient word and not bother with straightening out things like "overlap generation" or blood fractions and cleaning up the pedophile mess?

  • sir82

    An 8 hour elders meeting because they want to change "loose" to "brazen" in 5 Bible verses?

    The WTS is micro-managing and bureaucratic, but not even they would do so much overkill.


    btw the so called special elder's school (km school) is starting the new service year not in January. I am scheduled in November. This school was all of a sudden added recently so something is up.

  • WTWizard

    Their idea of "brazen conduct" means doing something after being hounded about it. And that means anything. They don't like that light blue shirt with that navy suit? You get hounded once to get a white shirt. Then, the next day, they see you with that light blue shirt because you didn't get the time to get a white one (from pious-sneering). Then they can get you for "brazen conduct" because you didn't respond to the hounder.

    God giving you a choice to not act on homosexuality? God doesn't give anyone a choice--he instead acts to manipulate circumstances so you can get forced into something you don't want, even if you are not attracted to the same sex. Not to mention, most of us have varying potential for being homosexual. Bisexuality is the normal--some of us are more "straight", while others more "gay". And most people will not indiscriminately have sex with every same-sex person they run into. And, due to the bisexual nature of most people, if they don't want someone doing homosexuality, it is extremely dangerous to pair them off in same-sex partnerships for a steady time (the pious-sneer assist and reading programs, Beth Hell roommates, and so on). People can and do become attracted to same-sex partners like that, especially when deprived of opposite sex companions--and they then have the nerve to claim homosexuality as being a horrible act of wickedness.

    And I see nothing wrong with the above conduct--flirting, pornography, and masturbation are not acts of gross wickedness. What about slavery, torture, holding people hostage to bad doctrines, and trying to prevent people from doing things to build up their souls? They break the rules of nature, yet they make their own Jewish-style (Pharisaic Jewish at that) rules and enforce them. If they want brazen conduct, I will show them brazen conduct--by putting up a Christmas tree right in the Kingdumb Hell with exactly 144,000 lights on it.

  • blondie

    Loose conduct - ks91-E pp.93, 96, w83 3/15 p.31, w73 9/15 p.574, it-2 p.264, ks91-E p.93, w83 3/15 p.31, w73 9/15 pp.574-6, w97 9/1 p.14, it-2 p.246.

    This includes;

    • Sexual perversion
    • Disregard for Jehovah's moral standards
    • Disrespect, disregard or even contempt for standards, laws and authority,

    Rather than restricted to the usual definition of sexual perversion, the Watchtower defines "loose conduct" as including "disrespect to elders". This enables this term to be used to disfellowship for a wide range of offences not elsewhere covered, and as such is used to cover all manner of sins, such as refusal to cease fellowship with disfellowshipped people, or even being contemptuous in a judicial meeting where no other sin can be proven.


    New Elder's Manual

    page 60

    9. Brazen conduct, loose conduct : (Gal. 5:19)
    The Greek word translated "brazen conduct," or
    "loose conduct," is a·sel'gei·a. Strong's Greek Dictionary
    uses very forceful terms to define it: "licentiousness;
    filth[iness], lasciviousness, wantonness." The
    New Thayer's Greek English Lexicon adds to the list
    "unbridled lust, ... outrageousness, shamelessness,
    insolence." Another lexicon defines a·sel'gei·a as conduct
    that "violates all bounds of what is socially acceptable."
    Rather than relating to bad conduct of a
    somewhat petty or minor nature, "brazen conduct"
    describes acts that reflect an attitude that betrays disrespect,
    disregard, or even contempt for divine standards,
    laws, and authority.
    Therefore, two elements
    are involved in brazen conduct: (1) The conduct itself
    is a serious violation ofJehovah's laws, and (2) the attitude
    of the wrongdoer toward God's laws is disrespectful,
    .-w06 7/15 p. 30; w83 3/15 p. 31;
    w73 pp. 574-576.

    10. Though this is not an exhaustive list, brazen
    conduct may be involved in the following if the
    wrongdoer has an insolent, contemptuous attitudemade evident by a practice of these things:
    • Willful, continued, unnecessary association
    with disfellowshipped nonrelatives despite
    repeated counsel.-Matt. 18:17b; 1 Cor. 5:11, 13;
    2 John 10, 11; w81 9/15 pp. 25-26.
    • Child sexual abuse: This would include fondling
    of breasts, an explicitly immoral proposal,
    showing pornography to a child, voyeurism, indecent
    exposure, and so forth.
    Continuing to date or pursue a romantic
    relationship with a person though not legally
    or Scripturally free to marry
    , despite repeated
    counsel and generally after a warning
    talk to the congregation.-Gal. 5:19; 2 Thess. 3:6,
    14, 15.

    11. Evidence (testified to by at least two witnesses)
    that the accused stayed all night in the
    same house with a person of the opposite sex
    (or in the same house with a known homosexual)
    under improper circumstances.- If questions
    are raised regarding Scriptural freedom to remarry,
    see 12:12.
    • Elders should use good judgment in assessing
    the situation before forming a judicial
    committee. Were the two persons alone together
    all night? Is there evidence of a romantic
    relationship? Are there understandable reasons,
    such as an unexpected emergency, that caused
    the situation?
    • If there are no extenuating circumstances, a judicial
    committee would be formed on the basis
    of strong circumstantial evidence of por·neí'a.
    Depending upon the attitude of the accused,
    there might even be evidence of brazen conduct.

    Consider other examples:
    • A married brother spends an inordinate amount
    of time with his female secretary after work
    hours but insists there is no romantic interest.
    His concerned wife informs the elders, who give
    him strong counsel. Later, when he claims to
    be leaving overnight for a "business trip," his
    Page 62
    suspicious wife and a relative follow him to the
    secretary' s home. They observe the secretary invite
    him inside at 10 p.m. and continue watching
    all night until he leaves the home at 7 a.m.
    When the elders speak to him, he admits that
    he spent the night alone with his secretary, but
    he denies that he committed adultery. In such a
    case, the elders have a basis to take judicial action
    because there is strong circumstantial evidence
    of por·neía and there may be elements
    of brazen conduct. The innocent mate's conscience
    may allow her to choose to divorce him
    and remarry; the elders would not take action
    against her for making this decision.

    page 64
    Other examples cited:
    An entrenched practice of viewing, perhaps
    for years, abhorrent forms of pornography
    that is sexually degrading. Such pornography
    may include sadistic torture, bondage,
    gang rape, the brutalizing of women, or child
    pornography. Brazen conduct would be involved
    if the offender was promoting such material,
    such as by inviting others to view it, thus
    giving evidence of a brazen attitude.-w06 7/15

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