What do you replace it with? (page 5)

myelaine

dear King Solomon...

you said: "Jesus completely believed in and endorsed ALL principles found in the Torah"...try and convince a liberal christian half of that

I think that the bible has eluded to the reason behind the need for war. God didn't want to have His people completely corrupted by foreign practices in that He wanted to bring His Son into the world at a later date and be able to "show" in real time how His mission of sacrifice and forgiveness of sins was a reality of that which was foreshadowed in the law and sacrificial system. it is a given that if you want something to remain you have to take measure to preserve it...those are the measures that God took to preserve His "message" from generation to generation.

the fact that there is slavery in the bible and Jesus didn't speak against it seems to be a big problem with those who denounce the notion of God...the fact is that slavery was acceptable in most nations up until a couple of hundred years ago...the point is that the old testament laws might have had a more benevolent spirit towards slaves than the surrounding nations...and Jesus might have taught the church that they ought to continue the practice of benevolence as all, slave and free were actually equal in Gods eyes. this teaching WAS in opposition to the practice of the day where slaves, women and children were accounted as property with little worth...(I've read that one thing that brought the ire of the romans toward the christians is their practice of bringing home or adopting babies that had been left to die by the road or in a field because they were unwanted)...(So, if you can find information about other nations practices in order to compare them then you might not be so quick to judge israel...as their reasons are not ones that would be considered cultural and or personal ambition but "religious"...an expression of the Holiness of God so to speak)

Jesus commissioned His followers to preach all that He had taught them which does include the tenents of the faith which come from judaism...He did not tell His followers to learn and have an answer for every question that arises from the study of ancient texts...He did, however, set aside teachers who have made it their lifes work to study and have an answer or explaination for the questions that arise.

love michelle

botchtowersociety

Jesus completely believed in and endorsed ALL principles found in the Torah

Which is why he contradicted it on divorce, or why he stopped a sanctioned stoning. There are other instances.

King Solomon

JB said:

"But the Jews did not keep the Torah laws and Jesus freed them from the rules, regulations and legalisms of the Torah.

With Jesus all you have to have is love and faith. Really all you need is faith."

Wow, have you told this Good News to the Jews? There must be millions of Jews who would be very relieved to learn they don't have to bother with kosher/kashrut any longer!!

King Solomon

BTS, I loved when Jesus quoted from the Torah, saying, "you have heard it said...."

Uh, yeah: it IS said, because it IS in the Torah!!

Don't get me started on the hypocrisy of Jesus...

Michelle, the reason you have even heard of Christ in the first place is because it was a trendy little new religion that was adopted as the State religion by the Romans, partly because it allowed the practice of slavery (whereas Zoroasterianism didn't).

botchtowersociety

Wow, have you told this Good News to the Jews? There must be millions of Jews who would be very relieved to learn they don't have to bother with kosher/kashrut any longer!!

Millions don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism

Michelle, the reason you have even heard of Christ in the first place is because it was a trendy little religion that was adopted as the State religion by the Romans, since it allowed the practice of slavery (whereas Zoroasterianism didn't).

That's a fascinating statement on your part. I've never heard or read that Christianity became the state religion because it permitted slavery. I did not know that Zoroastrianism was considered a viable option for a new state religion, or that Zoroastrians did not own slaves. I'd love to see evidence of all that from reputable sources. Furthermore, I am not aware of very many trendy little religions that survive three centuries of state persecution.

talesin

This was my texbook for Philosophy 101, it's available at Amazon.com. It's a great, unbiased way to examine some of the basic questions on life, and contains essays from philosophers from aristotle to Hume through Sojourner Truth, Neitze (sp?), and still-living writers such as French.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0495007110/ref=dp_image_text_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

It's also an 'easy read' ,, with questions for discussion at the end of each chapter, like any good textbook.

:)

talesin

hmmm ... can't get it to insert

TWENTY QUESTIONS

An Introduction to Philosophy

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515Iy%2B1CdPL._SS500_.jpg

tec

I have not read any of the comments in the thread so far, so i am just going to respond to your op:

So... I am coming to the conclusion that pretty much all of the doctrinal stuff that I have believed for 25/30 years is built on a house of cards and it's about to come crashing down. Question is what do I replace it with?

My opinion... don't replace those doctrines with any other doctrines. Just let them go and start from scratch (if you are willing and have the faith or desire to do so). Look to Christ for truth and answers... because He is the source and truth of God. Not the wts or men or organizations, or the doctrines some of them ask us to accept on their word.

My intellectual head says that that whole thing is junk and there is almost certainly no God at all. If there were then all the questions that "the truth" is meant to answer is there like what's God's plan, why is there so much suffering in the world etc.

No organization is the truth... or owns/has the truth. Christ is that truth. The 'truth' that the WTS claims to have and be... is men's thoughts/guesses/ponderings on the answers to those questions.

If there is no God however it's quite a mind bend to get your head from a place of hope/expectation to a place of this world is what it is and the best thing we can do is try and be nice people.

Yes, I can understand that. I think the best thing we can do is to try and be nice (or rather show love to as best as we can) to people, either way though

I know some people seem to have found a middle ground where the focus is on the compassionate nature of the Christ but I don't think you can really seperate Christ from the rest of the Bible and, by implication, his father and the wider picture.

I know a lot of people think this way.

I see it a bit differently, and I always have. Christ is the truth... Christ is the image and word of God. Therefore, to see God, one must look to and at Christ. No other thing is the image or word or truth of God. Not the bible, not a religion, not men, not even any of the other prophets. Only Christ. So if something does not comport with the image Christ gives us of God, then I look to that image (Christ), over anything else.

Sure, Jesus set a pretty nice pattern to follow in many ways but I see people all around me being nice people without any kind of faith. If you bring it down to a philisophical base then there is very little to raise Jesus above many other good people through history. If you keep the aspect of a divine relationship in there then you're back to questions about the point of creation - something that the "truth" had a pretty decent story for.

But that decent story is a house of cards about to fall down, right ;)

So perhaps not so decent after all.

Talking with a trusted friend they were trying to reason that ones we had known that had drifted away were not significantly happier or less confused but that's not the point. It's not about finding another meaning to life. Don't get me wrong, I feel no burning need to replace the "truth" with anything at all. It's just I can't quite get my head round all the implications of there being no God at all yet it actually feels like the most logical conclusion.

Oh. I had not read your post through to the end before I started responding. I see that you have no burning need to replace the 'truth' with anything, so you didn't really need my thoughts on your first bit after all :)

Of course you must choose your own path.

I think it makes more sense that life (us and other life) came from life. From something/one living... who could give that life to others. (breathe it into the world, so to speak) This is the understanding that i was given in spirit, when I asked whether or not I was making things more difficult by having a creator in the equation... rather than it being a spontaneous event.

I can also not deny God or His Son, because they are with me, so it would be illogical for me to conclude otherwise.

Peace to you, and in your journey,

tammy

still thinking

oooh...I missed this thread...coming back to read later....thanx

mindseye

Konceptual, Talesin's advice to study some philosophy is a good place to start. It encourages one to look at things critically, even our basic assumptions about reality and perception.

I also agree with botchtower to think of life as a journey - explore different ideas and experiences. I've explored atheism (Dawkins etc. were provocative reads, but I now find their arguments simplistic), philosophy, theology, eastern spirituality, etc. I practice zen meditation, and find it gives me insight and a sense of peace. But I don't think of any of this as replacing the JW religion. I really don't feel the need for certainty any more. 'Certainty' takes the mystery and fun out of life.

Oh yeah, if you're not ready to give up on God just yet, read Karen Armstrong's 'Case for God'. It's one of the best books that I've read. Armstrong argues that that the childish debates and struggles we have over God are based on how we define God in the first place. It was a real eye-opener for me.

What do you replace it with?

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